...

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Leon

Forgive me if it is in one of these threads (and I will go back and look if it is) but can you provide the proof here?

Yes, sir, I can...and I will...but not just yet. The name I posted above was just my first shot. Why fire all of my bullets at once? Nope. First, I want to hear Probstein give an explanation...either here or on CU. As you've said before Leon, sometimes it's better to let people dig their own grave.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Yes, sir, I can...and I will...but not just yet. The name I posted above was just my first shot. Why fire all of my bullets at once? Nope. First, I want to hear Probstein give an explanation...either here or on CU. As you've said before Leon, sometimes it's better to let people dig their own grave.

Fine by me...

[eb548]

It's the Jewish sabbath. Rick Probstein has not read this accusation and cannot comment right now.

David- maybe you should also take a day of rest? Jeez- enough already. Haven't you reached your daily post limit? How many threads and posts does it take to make a point?

If you have your so called proof just post the damn thing so we can all move on. Instead you seem to enjoy hearing yourself talk and watching other people use shovels.

[D.P.Johnson]

Originally Posted by eb548

It's the Jewish sabbath. Rick Probstein has not read this accusation and cannot comment right now.

David- maybe you should also take a day of rest? Jeez- enough already. Haven't you reached your daily post limit? How many threads and posts does it take to make a point?

If you have your so called proof just post the damn thing so we can all move on. Instead you seem to enjoy hearing yourself talk and watching other people use shovels.

Well....it does sometime take a little time and investigative work to figure out who all the "players" are...I mean, it was just a couple days ago the altered cards were brought to everyone's attention, and it was just today we've figured out exactly who bought these cards and altered them...Dave is doing an OUTSTANDING job IMHO, and I find it odd that anyone would question his method or motives...

[ullmandds]

I agree with what Dan just said!

[HRBAKER]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

I agree with what Dan just said!

Me too

[Sean1125]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Yes, sir, I can...and I will...but not just yet. The name I posted above was just my first shot. Why fire all of my bullets at once? Nope. First, I want to hear Probstein give an explanation...either here or on CU. As you've said before Leon, sometimes it's better to let people dig their own grave.

I would like to hear your proof before any explanation is given on Rick's part. I haven't disagreed with much that you say David but I heavily disagree with this statement. You are saying you have proof yet want him to explain before you provide the proof?

[D.P.Johnson]

I honestly don't know what the nexus is between Pankiewicz and Probstein but, I do know that Pankiewicz is the person who initially bought the cards from the original sellers and, based on the extremely fast turnaround time in getting the cards re-graded, he's most likely the person who altered them.

[WhenItWasAHobby]

The card trimmed at the top edge is very disturbing to me in that it is so obvious. With this and some of the other PSA doctored cards that have been posted on this forum, how can anyone still take PSA seriously?

[travrosty]

Originally Posted by WhenItWasAHobby

The card trimmed at the top edge is very disturbing to me in that it is so obvious. With this and some of the other PSA doctored cards that have been posted on this forum, how can anyone still take PSA seriously?

I dont know how. Isn't trimming something that should be obvious to psa, if not, how many bajillions have cards have slipped by if they can't catch these alterations?

[vintagecpa]

When you are dealing with someone's reputation and livelihood, I think it is only proper to put everything on the table and go from there. It isn't fair to treat real life like a Perry Mason TV episode.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Sean1125

You are saying you have proof yet want him to explain before you provide the proof?

Sean,

Do you watch any real life detective shows? Think of it like this. When an investigator asks a suspect a question, doesn't the investigator already know the answer (and have the proof) before he even asks the question? Sure he does. All, he's doing is giving the supsect a chance to answer honestly. If he lies, then he incriminates himself even more. Why would I tell what I know at this point? I want to hear an explanation and if that explanation contradicts what I know, then I have the proof to pop him with a lie.

[thehoodedcoder]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Sean,

Do you watch any real life detective shows? Think of it like this. When an investigator asks a suspect a question, doesn't the investigator already know the answer (and have the proof) before he even asks the question? Sure he does. All, he's doing is giving the supsect a chance to answer honestly. If he lies, then he incriminates himself even more. Why would I tell what I know at this point? I want to hear an explanation and if that explanation contradicts what I know, then I have the proof to pop him with a lie.

exactly. +1.

i actually read 38 pages of the other thread. i couldn't take any more. im glad this got regrouped into an easier to follow consolidated thread as there were like 20 some pages of pure fluff.

kevin

[glchen]

Great job, Dave. I thought I heard that name before.

[HRBAKER]

With this and some of the other PSA doctored cards that have been posted on this forum, how can anyone still take PSA seriously?

I think the last 10 years have shown us that there are many collectors who care far far less whether a card has been altered than what number is on the flip.

[travrosty]

Originally Posted by HRBAKER

With this and some of the other PSA doctored cards that have been posted on this forum, how can anyone still take PSA seriously?

I think the last 10 years have shown us that there are many collectors who care far far less whether a card has been altered than what number is on the flip.

This is also true.

[ullmandds]

bajillions...and bajillions!!! maybe even a google?

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Originally Posted by HRBAKER

With this and some of the other PSA doctored cards that have been posted on this forum, how can anyone still take PSA seriously?

I think the last 10 years have shown us that there are many collectors who care far far less whether a card has been altered than what number is on the flip.

Agreed and it's one of the most perplexing behavior patterns I've witnessed firsthand in my lifetime. I've seen a lot of similarity between people of this ilk and battered women who refuse to leave their husbands or die hard fans of professional wrestling who strenuously deny that the performance is staged.

[botn]

I do not feel the Gehrig in question is trimmed, other than possibly the upper right which was filed down due to the excess paper. I feel what we are seeing is simply from someone using too much force to press down the lifted paper. I would have to see it in person to know for sure but that is my impression. Grading companies should catch alterations that are obvious but shouldn't we be more pissed off at the people altering the cards? I mean it is a ton of fun to beat up on PSA but how about the FBI taking a look at some of the obvious card restoration that goes on? It is one thing to get a card bumped but another to change it's appearance in order to get it bumped.

I have said it for years on this board. All cards are at risk of being altered if in so doing their value increases enough to justify the time involved. Lessor condition high dollar cards are as susceptible to altering as the high grade material.

[T206Collector]

We had a poll on here a few years ago. Most of Net54 did not consider soaking a T206 to remove glue/gunk, or using an art eraser to erase pencil marks, was an impermissible alteration. I have done both, and SGC has graded both. My experience has been that if SGC notices the markings, they deduct for it; if they don't, they don't.

What crossed the line to impermissible for most of this board was anything that altered the cardboard itself to improve its condition, including the usual suspects of trimming, and pressing creases.

The stuff that hurts your head as a collector just trying to do the right thing is the soaking to remove glue and then drying the card by pressing it, which is permissible, but that incidentally flattens a wrinkle or a crease. We must have had a 10-page debate on here about the morals of that!

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Originally Posted by botn

I do not feel the Gehrig in question is trimmed, other than possibly the upper right which was filed down due to the excess paper. I feel what we are seeing is simply from someone using too much force to press down the lifted paper. I would have to see it in person to know for sure but that is my impression. Grading companies should catch alterations that are obvious but shouldn't we be more pissed off at the people altering the cards? I mean it is a ton of fun to beat up on PSA but how about the FBI taking a look at some of the obvious card restoration that goes on? It is one thing to get a card bumped but another to change it's appearance in order to get it bumped.

I have said it for years on this board. All cards are at risk of being altered if in so doing their value increases enough to justify the time involved. Lessor condition high dollar cards are as susceptible to altering as the high grade material.

Greg,

That's probably a very accurate assessment of what work has been done. Clearly all of the surface damage to the paper stock, especially on the back edges has been flattened out. But what in my opinion should have raised red flags to any grader is that the upper frayed corners are squared off, which clearly isn't natural wear for a low grade card.

Yes, it would be great if law enforcement cuffed and stuffed some of these low-lifes, but on the other hand if PSA was competent in detecting these significant card alterations, the card doctors would be out of business and move on to some other means of making money.

Yes, I agree with you that it appears the card doctors have a "no card left behind" mentality. If money can be made on a card, regardless of the condition, then as this thread has revealed, cards will be worked on to increase their value. This debunks the myth that buying low grade cards is safe hedge from being defrauded.