Can corruption kill this beloved hobby?

Fred · #1 08-22-2013, 06:53 PM

Pete,

I'm not sure if scans provided from auction houses are modified. Sometimes the scanner default settings are the result of "not so good" scans. However, I've seen it where scans have been manipulated. For example, auction houses would scan OJs so that the images were a bit darker than they truly were. In that case you know someone was screwing around with the contrast and brightness settings after you received a card or lot of cards that were not as dark as the pictures provided.

One thing I would expect is that an accurate description of the card is posted if the scan did not show certain defects.

As far as corruptness killing this hobby goes, just think about the whole basis of TPG grading and the ONE card that started the revolution. To me that places the whole validity of grading on shakey ground. Not only that, you know a lot of cards have been passed as unaltered. I wouldn't think that PSA, SGC or Beckett would pass off a reprint on purpose but you can't tell me that PSA didn't pass off the Wagner and many of the HALL collection of T206 cards as unaltered.

As long as people love this stuff I think it will be hard to kill the hobby. Me for instance, I'd love to see a mass exodus from this hobby so that I could buy the stuff that I love that much cheaper. As long as suckers like me exist, there will be a market for old dead guys depicted on cardboard.

HRBAKER · #2 08-22-2013, 06:55 PM

Can corruption kill this beloved hobby?

In a word, no.
Too many willing accomplices, also known as buyers.

toppcat · #3 08-22-2013, 06:58 PM

It's not just the hobby, it's everywhere.

Leon · #4 08-22-2013, 07:01 PM

I don't think corruption will kill the hobby. If we are all diligent we can significantly decrease it in our sphere, by keeping individuals and companies accountable for their actions. Thank God for the FBI, Postal Inspectors, Secret Service and other law enforcement who take an interest in our hobby. And thanks to all collectors who try to rat out the bad guys, wherever they may be.

martindl · #5 08-22-2013, 08:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leon

I don't think corruption will kill the hobby. If we are all diligent we can significantly decrease it in our sphere, by keeping individuals and companies accountable for their actions. Thank God for the FBI, Postal Inspectors, Secret Service and other law enforcement who take an interest in our hobby. And thanks to all collectors who try to rat out the bad guys, wherever they may be.

While I agree with the sentiment Leon, the truth is there's very much a "look the other way" mentality that pervades this hobby. If you had say a jewelry store in your local area, one run by a known cheater so accused based on multiple proven instances of past wrong doing, who consistently offers up gold that is really brass, would the people in your area continue to flock there? No they wouldn't. They'd avoid the place like the plague.

Not so in this hobby. Regardless of past and present indisgressions, people keep going back. Like Barry said, it's an addiction and like most addictions, it defies logical actions.

Martin Dalziel

MBMiller25 · #6 08-22-2013, 08:49 PM

I think any time you involve money and wealth you will find corruption and fraud not to far behind. In my opinion it's a shame that it has become as blatant and in your face like is, but I refer back to my first sentence.

Zach Wheat · #7 08-22-2013, 09:10 PM

I don't think it will wreck the hobby by any means. Deceptive practices have always been present to some extent. I have become a helluva lot more educated buyer.

Z Wheat

ethicsprof · #8 08-22-2013, 09:06 PM

the hobby will not die. It may well, at some point, lose its preoccupation with(1)
grades and grading,(2) competitive oneupsmanship,(3) ad hominem arguments,(4)
illusions that avocations must be remunerative vocations at all costs,(5) expertise
becoming synonymous with ruthless, retaliatory efforts backed by perfect card corners or the lack thereof, and,(6)the unrelenting desire to win and gain no matter the harm to the hobby or to another.

I like that Pete U. described the hobby as the beloved hobby. Losing the
preoccupations with the aforementioned may well renew, even revivify,
our own relationship with the beloved. Nothing will kill that. IMHO

all the best,
barry

ethicsprof · #9 08-22-2013, 09:06 PM

THIS IS A REPEAT. I' M SORRY.

I like that Pete U. described the hobby as the beloved hobby. Losing the
preoccupations with the aforementioned may well renew, even revivify,
our own relationship with the beloved. Nothing will kill that. IMHO

all the best,
barry

HRBAKER · #10 08-22-2013, 09:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ethicsprof

the hobby will not die. It may well, at some point, lose its preoccupation with(1)
grades and grading,(2) competitive oneupsmanship,(3) ad hominem arguments,(4)
illusions that avocations must be remunerative vocations at all costs,(5) expertise
becoming synonymous with ruthless, retaliatory efforts backed by perfect card corners or the lack thereof, and,(6)the unrelenting desire to win and gain no matter the harm to the hobby or to another.

I like that Pete U. described the hobby as the beloved hobby. Losing the
preoccupations with the aforementioned may well renew, even revivify,
our own relationship with the beloved. Nothing will kill that. IMHO

all the best,
barry

Barry,

I'm headed for my thesaurus again!

HRBAKER · #11 08-22-2013, 07:02 PM

We get what we put up with.
And we've proven to be a resourceful bunch.

barrysloate · #12 08-22-2013, 07:03 PM

Corruption and fraud aren't going to help the hobby, and there will certainly be some attrition due to it. But the hobby will somehow manage to survive, perhaps a little smaller but still with a pulse. That said, it's disgusting some of the things that go on. If collectors weren't so addicted many would walk away, but the lure of stuff is too great.

drcy · #13 08-22-2013, 07:04 PM

If eBay has taught us anything, it's that there are a lot of painfully stupid people in this world.

HRBAKER · #14 08-22-2013, 07:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drcy

If eBay has taught us anything, it's that there are a lot of painfully stupid people in this world.

...and a whole lot of smart ones who accept it as the course of doing business.

drcy · #15 08-22-2013, 07:12 PM

You call them painfully stupid, P.T. Barnum calls them a new market.

Though, in defense of stupid buyers, there are a lot of stupid sellers too.

67_Palmer · #16 08-22-2013, 07:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by toppcat

It's not just the hobby, it's everywhere.

This

drcy · #17 08-23-2013, 02:00 AM

From the Canadian backwoods comedy show The Red Green Show, when resident antique store owner Dalton Humphrey was asked if he'd sell a dangerously defective old car to a family member: "Each and every one of my family and friends is an integral and cherished part of my life, but a buck's a buck."

Dalton said he used to own a junk store but wasn't making enough money so changed it into an antiques store. When asked how he did that, he said he changed the sign out front.

As has often been said, you can find all of humanity in Shakespeare and The Red Green Show.

teetwoohsix · #18 08-23-2013, 02:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by toppcat

It's not just the hobby, it's everywhere.

+1

At least the hobby is no where near as corrupt as D.C. is.

Sincerely, Clayton

frankbmd · #19 08-23-2013, 07:22 AM

In front of a card shop near me

autograf · #20 08-23-2013, 07:27 AM

As we've seen countless times, "STUFF TRUMPS ETHICS"......countless times auction houses have been caught trimming, enhancing, spooning, ironing, touting, shilling, etc and we (most of us) continue to bid with them. SO.....who's the problem? Them? or US? As long as we keep buying the stuff.....the hobby goes on. Some of those who rail the loudest are adding new stuff to their collection every day.........

ullmandds · #21 08-23-2013, 07:40 AM

The thing that "rubs" me is that I'd have paid double what that t216 blank back miller ended up selling for...as I believed it was the only one. Many of us have similar lunatic tendencies regarding our collections...so it isn't necessary for the AH's to be deceptive? Just b F...k'in honest...we'll still pay?!?!?!?!

Peter_Spaeth · #22 08-23-2013, 09:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by autograf

As we've seen countless times, "STUFF TRUMPS ETHICS"......countless times auction houses have been caught trimming, enhancing, spooning, ironing, touting, shilling, etc and we (most of us) continue to bid with them. SO.....who's the problem? Them? or US? As long as we keep buying the stuff.....the hobby goes on. Some of those who rail the loudest are adding new stuff to their collection every day.........

Well said. And I would add that we (myself included) continue to buy cards although there is a reasonable chance they have been tampered with in some way.

robw · #23 08-23-2013, 07:38 AM

Having taken a near 20 year break from the hobby/industry, and now back for the past year, here's my 2 cents.

1) Corruption will not kill this, our culture will/does. Cards are not looked at like they were in the 50's, 60's and prior. Baseball was life back then, and cards a way to live vicariously through said life. It wasn't about condition, but about completing sets, getting your favorite player/team. That is long gone...now it's about winning the lottery with chase cards. Not to mention, there are many, many more hobbies and interests to partake in today than in prior times.

2) Once something is labeled as "collectible," it typically isn't-that's the new card market today

3) TPG's are a must, in my opinion. I am less a conspiracy theorist than most and do think they are as unbiased as it is going to get. I got out of the business originally just as the idea of TPG's were just starting to be mentioned. Now, I probably won't buy a card online that hasn't gone through a TPG. I know too many people that have been burned by ungraded singles hoping to grade them, only to find they have been altered. Fortunately for some, unfortunately for most newcomers, it's going to cost an arm and a leg to start buying high-graded older cards...that price barrier knocks many people out of the "industry."

4) People in the industry-even the most legitimate dealers share the blame in my opinion. Ever look how many auctions are on eBay? My searches show about 10% of all listings. Everything else is "Buy It Now." Even some of the auction prices start ABOVE book value. I've been to larger trade shows recently, as well. There's no excitement. Cards I thought were rare 20 years ago are stacked in graded cases as high as the ceiling-and its just the same show, time after time. The dealers don't even move around-same table arrangement, etc.

It's just like golf, though-it only takes a single great shot to keep you coming back....i'll keep searching for my diamonds in the rough.

Rob

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