Brandon - Thank you for writing and compiling the Baseball Guides!

[springpin]

Leon,

In creating Net54, did you ever give any thought to having members provide input/information/opinion on hobby matters devoid of revealing personal identity? What matters to me is what I learn from reading other people's ideas, not who wrote it. To the best of my knowledge I have never met a single person who contributes to the board, but I have learned from many of them, and can relate to the passion they hold for their area of collecting. I believe personal attacks originate from having a sense of person. If there were no personal identities to be revealed, we could focus solely on the value of the information we learn here. I share the concern of Lance (who I do not know) about Brandon (who I also do not know). When we alienate knowledgeable people, we weaken the board's greatest strength: expertise. Brandon, we need you. Please reconsider your (justified) reaction.

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by springpin

Leon,

In creating Net54, did you ever give any thought to having members provide input/information/opinion on hobby matters devoid of revealing personal identity? What matters to me is what I learn from reading other people's ideas, not who wrote it. To the best of my knowledge I have never met a single person who contributes to the board, but I have learned from many of them, and can relate to the passion they hold for their area of collecting. I believe personal attacks originate from having a sense of person. If there were no personal identities to be revealed, we could focus solely on the value of the information we learn here. I share the concern of Lance (who I do not know) about Brandon (who I also do not know). When we alienate knowledgeable people, we weaken the board's greatest strength: expertise. Brandon, we need you. Please reconsider your (justified) reaction.

Making the forum less personal would definitely increase the personal attacks. This is not even debatable. Anonymity emboldens trolls and misanthropes. You are a college professor so I'm sure you probably remember usenet...you can still see the smoking remains of usenet in Google Groups...it's a wretched hive of scum and villainy ($1 to Obi Wan Kenobi).

[murphusa]

If Brett had never seen the auction on eBay and the ball sold to someone and maybe a week latter that person came here and asked what is this ball that he won. He can't find any records of an orange stitched ball, everyone would have been waiting for Brandon to comment.

And what would have have said?


That's the problem

[deebro041]

I'm curious as to how many of the board members who turned against Brandon own any Joe Jackson cards/memorabilia.

[thecatspajamas]

Originally Posted by murphusa

If Brett had never seen the auction on eBay and the ball sold to someone and maybe a week latter that person came here and asked what is this ball that he won. He can't find any records of an orange stitched ball, everyone would have been waiting for Brandon to comment.

And what would have have said?


That's the problem

Yes, Jim, that would have been a problematic scenario, but that's not what happened. The problem is not some "what if" scenario in which we suppose the accused would fall short. Neither is the problem in investigating potential fraud in the hobby, nor is it in anonymity or the lack thereof.

The problem is impugning someone's reputation based on a pre-supposed conclusion, and using defamation of character as a tool to try and wring a confession, any confession, out of the accused. The problem is the attitude of "the ends justify the means" and the lack of personal responsibility in how we pursue the truth. And I say "we" intentionally, because I too have been guilty of wielding a pitchfork before I knew all the facts, but it's not something I'm proud of, and seeing first-hand the effects those rash judgements can have, is something I intend to avoid in the future.

One thing that I have always appreciated about how Leon handles tough situations of he said/she said is by reaching out to the accused with a phone call to at least get their side of the story before handing down any judgements. I wonder, of all of Brandon's accusers, how many of you reached out to Brandon to get his side of the story? For that matter, how many have ever spoken to him personally. I daresay if you actually knew him as anything more than "the ball guy," you would not be so quick to judge.

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by thecatspajamas

Yes, Jim, that would have been a problematic scenario, but that's not what happened. The problem is not some "what if" scenario in which we suppose the accused would fall short. Neither is the problem in investigating potential fraud in the hobby, nor is it in anonymity or the lack thereof.

The problem is impugning someone's reputation based on a pre-supposed conclusion, and using defamation of character as a tool to try and wring a confession, any confession, out of the accused. The problem is the attitude of "the ends justify the means" and the lack of personal responsibility in how we pursue the truth. And I say "we" intentionally, because I too have been guilty of wielding a pitchfork before I knew all the facts, but it's not something I'm proud of, and seeing first-hand the effects those rash judgements can have, is something I intend to avoid in the future.

One thing that I have always appreciated about how Leon handles tough situations of he said/she said is by reaching out to the accused with a phone call to at least get their side of the story before handing down any judgements. I wonder, of all of Brandon's accusers, how many of you reached out to Brandon to get his side of the story? For that matter, how many have ever spoken to him personally. I daresay if you actually knew him as anything more than "the ball guy," you would not be so quick to judge.

How should it have been handled?

-A Ball was purchased on ebay for ~$25 by a member of this forum from another member of this forum.

-This ball later shows up with new stitching and is being sold as a very rare AS game baseball.

-When a check of that ebay ID is done it is revealed to be associated with Brandon.

-Brandon refuses to answer any questions regarding this baseball and says that it was all some former business associate of his whom he will not name.

I guess we were all supposed to just shut up at that point and move along.

[Forever Young]

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

How should it have been handled?

-A Ball was purchased on ebay for ~$25 by a member of this forum from another member of this forum.

-This ball later shows up with new stitching and is being sold as a very rare AS game baseball.

-When a check of that ebay ID is done it is revealed to be associated with Brandon.

-Brandon refuses to answer any questions regarding this baseball and says that it was all some former business associate of his whom he will not name.

I guess we were all supposed to just shut up at that point and move along.

No... But I think you're suppose to all shut up at this point. A tread to thank Brandon was jacked and still it goes on. F n let it go so he can move on.

[BigJJ]

I think we're of one mind on this now if I am correct.
I think we all agree that the questions asked were right and good. They should have been asked 100%.
I think we also agree that there was a clear error made in not destroying the ball. and that there was no self-enriching motivation. And it really is the motivation that is important. We all make incorrect decisions. Importantly, it is clear that Brandon tried to rectify his error immediately and to the best of his ability.
To me, everyone has done what they should. posters and Brandon. should be no hard feelings. thankful to all.
If we were all in a physical room with one another, I bet this would have been ironed out in 20 minutes with cracking up and a few curses.
And Ben wouldn't have it any other way!

[thecatspajamas]

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

How should it have been handled?

-A Ball was purchased on ebay for ~$25 by a member of this forum from another member of this forum.

-This ball later shows up with new stitching and is being sold as a very rare AS game baseball.

-When a check of that ebay ID is done it is revealed to be associated with Brandon.

-Brandon refuses to answer any questions regarding this baseball and says that it was all some former business associate of his whom he will not name.

I guess we were all supposed to just shut up at that point and move along.

Originally Posted by thecatspajamas

One thing that I have always appreciated about how Leon handles tough situations of he said/she said is by reaching out to the accused with a phone call to at least get their side of the story before handing down any judgements. I wonder, of all of Brandon's accusers, how many of you reached out to Brandon to get his side of the story? For that matter, how many have ever spoken to him personally. I daresay if you actually knew him as anything more than "the ball guy," you would not be so quick to judge.

Dan, Brandon answered a LOT of questions about the ball and his relationship with the seller. The one question that he did not answer is the name of his friend selling the ball, and I realize that irks you. You have made it very clear, in this situation and others, that not naming names is one of your pet peeves. Brandon gave his reasons for not giving his friend's name, and given the circumstances, I think you should be able to understand his reluctance to do so even if you don't agree with his decision. (And just for the record, I don't know the name of the seller either.)

I still think that if you or any of the other accusers had taken the time to reach out to Brandon personally before ripping him a new one in a public forum, you would be much more likely to get the straight answer everyone said they wanted. I simply cannot see how publicly subjecting a board member to one accusation after another in order to drag some sort of confession out of him piece by piece, not talking to him personally to get his side of the story before going public, and continuing to rip him even after the situation has been resolved can possibly be "how it should have been handled."

Just please, before you string someone up for something that "smells fishy," take a couple of minutes to ask them the pertinent questions and get their side of the story, especially when it's a board member. By no means should we stop investigating fraud in the hobby and policing ourselves, but I think we owe our fellow board members at least that courtesy. At this point, I think anything else I say would just be repeating myself, and I should heed my own advice to just let it drop. If anyone wants to discuss this or any other matter further, you know where to find me.

Lance F!ttr0

[Forever Young]

Originally Posted by thecatspajamas

Just please, before you string someone up for something that "smells fishy," take a couple of minutes to ask them the pertinent questions and get their side of the story, especially when it's a board member. By no means should we stop investigating fraud in the hobby and policing ourselves, but I think we owe our fellow board members at least that courtesy. At this point, I think anything else I say would just be repeating myself, and I should heed my own advice to just let it drop. If anyone wants to discuss this or any other matter further, you know where to find me.

Lance F!ttr0

In other words... be a man, grow a sack and fill it with some genuine balls.

Originally Posted by BigJJ

If we were all in a physical room with one another, I bet this would have been ironed out in 20 minutes with cracking up and a few curses.
And Ben wouldn't have it any other way!

You got that right..

[Leon]

Originally Posted by springpin

Leon,

In creating Net54, did you ever give any thought to having members provide input/information/opinion on hobby matters devoid of revealing personal identity? What matters to me is what I learn from reading other people's ideas, not who wrote it. To the best of my knowledge I have never met a single person who contributes to the board, but I have learned from many of them, and can relate to the passion they hold for their area of collecting. I believe personal attacks originate from having a sense of person. If there were no personal identities to be revealed, we could focus solely on the value of the information we learn here. I share the concern of Lance (who I do not know) about Brandon (who I also do not know). When we alienate knowledgeable people, we weaken the board's greatest strength: expertise. Brandon, we need you. Please reconsider your (justified) reaction.

I dare to say I have given more thought to how the board is run and managed than most. I will never manage a board where people don't have to take responsibility for what they say by not having their names by their posts. For the few people it runs off, it lets others know they won't get lambasted anonymously. No one went after Brandon whose name wasn't known. I feel strongly about the way it is today......and feel, though it's not perfect, it's the best it can be. Some of my best hobby friends won't post because of the things that go on....but that's just the way it is. I have been on other boards that allow anonymity. It's not that fun.....If someone wants to say I am an arse, fine, put your name by it. I am always open to debate and thoughts on things to make the board better. I like Brandon (hey Brandon) and hope he sticks around, if he doesn't, we'll leave the lights on for him if he ever wants to come back. It's an open forum....