Old Judge question

[bn2cardz]

Originally Posted by cyseymour

If you give any card two separate numbers, and on of those numbers is found on the card itself, and the other number isn't, then which number is really the number of the card? I'll tell you that it is the number found on the card. The CSGB can give it whatever number they wish, but so could anyone, and in that perspective the Mack could have an infinite amount of numbers associated with it... but you are missing something quite obvious... despite the potentially infinite amount of numbers a card could have, there is an actually number printed on the card itself that it does have.

The CSGB, they can use whatever methods they wish, but that doesn't mean the card is really number 252-2. Same for SGC. They could say that a Burns card is "1887 Old Judge" although it is says "Copyright 1889" on it, they have a right to call it whatever they want. If they wanted to call it a 625 B.C. Old Judge, they could call it that, but that wouldn't make it any more produced in 625 B.C. than in was in 1887. No matter what their methods, both of those numbers are equally wrong because it was really produced in 1889.

So by your standards, anything could be called anything if some grading company or cartophilic society said so. If they decided to call a "hat" a "shoe", and vice versa, you'd be putting shoes on your head and walking down to the drugstore in your new pair of hats. Now, they might have their reasons for doing it, but that is their business - I know what a hat and I know what a shoe is, and I've never walked to the drugstore in my new pair of hats or worn shoes on my head. Not sure if you can say the same.

Wow, I don't know what is so hard for you to understand about this. The two numbers are not associated nor are they replacements. Also I was the one that pointed out that there are several years of cards that the TPGs don't acknowledge. Read through the posts again.

The CSGB numbers are for the poses themselves. They help to oragnize what pose can be found in each subset of Old Judges they do not diminish the numbers on the short number of "0" series cards. You can still use the short number's number on the card to build a set for just that set, but if you want to build across all the years and layouts it is good to know what pose can be found across each set. Not every sub set of N172 has a number on it and the two that do have contradicting numbers. THEY ARE NOT SUPPOSE TO BE INTERCHANGEABLE.

Number on the card is the number in the set
Number from CSGB is the number used for the pose
Not every pose is found in the short number or 0 Series cards so there are many cars without an original number given to them, then to top it off some of those cards that do have numbers contradict numbers in the next set.

So instead of thinking they are replacing the number think of it like this: No one is saying card 0137 is actually 252-2. They are saying card 0137 has pose 252-2 on it. I don't know how I could make this anymore clear to you.

The classification by pose allows people to collect by pose rather than by subset if wanted.

[bn2cardz]

I have to add, I know all this information because I read the book.

[cyseymour]

Originally Posted by bn2cardz

I have to add, I know all this information because I read the book.

I guess it's impossible for anyone else who's read the book to disagree with you, then.

I've got to go, but I'll write later this evening.

[oldjudge]

Good job Andy. It's always nice to see that someone has actually taken the time to read what we have written.

[bn2cardz]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Good job Andy. It's always nice to see that someone has actually taken the time to read what we have written.

That book is an invaluable tool for collecting the n172 and all the corresponding sets. It has helped me understand the set a lot better. I just wish the grading companies would buy a book for a reference tool .

[oldjudge]

They have actually bought quite a few copies. I know SGC bought multiple copies and I think PSA did also. Reading the books, however, may be another issue.

[cyseymour]

It is not a knock on the book. I simply don't agree with the numbering system created by the CSGB. There are better ways to go about it, imo. Yes, the CSGB system goes by pose - even people who haven't read the book should realize that. My view is that's not the best approach for the following reasons:

1. Since the CSGB system doesn't factor in year, it has lead the grading companies to apathetically label all the cards "1887 Old Judge". They have been getting away with it because the system is set up so that the cards aren't organized according to year in the CSGB, so the grading companies feel they don't need to distinguish between year. This is really silly because the cards themselves say things like "copyright 1889" on them - and that leads to threads like this one as started by the OP.

2. Since the CSGB doesn't consider subset or year, it means that numbers are given to cards which already have numbers. Since some cards already have numbers, it would be better to go to a system which didn't use numbers. That way it avoids giving cards which already have numbers and second number. There is no precedent I can think of for doing that within the hobby. If you've got a different example of when a card which had a certain number directly on the card was assigned a number which is not on the card, I'd love to see it. Either way, it is counter-intuitive and I find it a flaw in the system.

3. The CSGB system, as it is comprised, creates a single set which is 2500+ cards in size. This is simply too large. Yes, there is one or two collectors who may be attempting to complete it, but 99%+ of collectors would have no chance at all. I mean, no chance of even coming close. Breaking down the set, it would still be quite difficult to complete, but it wouldn't be nearly as difficult, and completing a subset or getting close to completing one is far more attainable than attempting to complete an entire 2500+ set.

4. The CSGB numbering system has very little practical function. If you told a collector you just purchased card number 122-5, he wouldn't understand which card you were talking about anyways. But if you told him that you just acquired a Harry Decker Throwing, he would instantly know which card you were talking about. In that case, what is the point of giving the card a number? There are myriad cards from other sets that are just listed as the player and pose without providing a number. So I see no reason to create new numbers or even think about the numbers unless you are collecting a 1887 numbered subset - for which the numbers already exist anyways.

5. Finally, let me say that, by jumbling all the different subsets together, the CSGB pays short shrift to many of the beautiful and interesting variations within Old Judge cards - year, design, subset, etc. The CSGB system obfuscates them instead of allowing them to shine so that collectors can have different aims and highlight the diversity of cards and years within the set.

For those reasons, I believe the CSGB system to be detrimental to OJ collectiing. You all have a right to disagree, but please make your points based on the cards themselves, instead of accusations that either a) I don't understand the book, or b) that everything which is in the book must be the correct way of doing things. The former is false and the latter is dogma. If you think the CSGB system is fantastic and I am completely mistaken, come and tell me why in your own words. But I feel like I have a right to make my criticisms of that system.

Thanks