What PSA/DNA and Heritage auctions are doing to our beloved boxing hobby!

[travrosty]

Originally Posted by thenavarro

I'm not omnipotent. I don't know why they changed course if in fact they used to cert autographs without exemplars.

Perhaps, they are learning from their past and are making an effort to change in the current and future.

I do know, that I would prefer they don't certify autographs that they either don't have exemplars of, or are no longer comfortable with their exemplar database for that signer.

That's what they are supposed to do. So props to them as I mentioned above.

(and please just call me Mike, that Mr. nonsense makes me feel old Although my hair has it's fair share of greys now, I'm probably around the same age range as you, if I had to guess I'd place you around 42 or so)

Mike

Thanks Mike, they arent doing their job if they dont have Julian exemples. They are not suppose to NOT know who martin julian is and have no exemplars of him. They claim to be the best in the world? Are they? How many of these do we have to show? A million I guess because you will never come around.

If Grad looked at these can you really call him an expert. I just showed you Martin Julian exemplars, and if they didn't have those over there at PSA then are they doing their job. These exemplars are not under lock and key, they are on the internet!

http://www.psaautographfacts.com/Aut...ob-fitzsimmons

here is their exemplars for Bob Fitzsimmons that they show on autograph facts.

The first one is a wife signed Fitzsimmons that doesnt look like the others?

What's your defense for that one. They already know about it but refuse to take it down. Is that a company that is trying to do it's best to correct their mistakes?

[travrosty]

Mike, I have a serious question. If you could be so kind to answer.

What would I have to show you that would make you say "these people don't know what they are doing, because that is just ridiculous and over the line"

is there anything? because i dont think there is anything at this point.

[thenavarro]

Originally Posted by travrosty

Mike, I have a serious question. If you could be so kind to answer.

What would I have to show you that would make you say "these people don't know what they are doing, because that is just ridiculous and over the line"

is there anything? because i dont think there is anything at this point.

Sure Travis, I'll answer in just a few minutes, give me time to type it out. I can't keep up with the back and forth due to my arthritic fingers. As soon as I post this, I'll begin to reply to the questions in this one.


Mike

[travrosty]

What you don't realize is that you are spending time defending them here and they don't even want to come on here and defend themselves!

They let you do it for them, they don't bother.

Well, they don't have any answer anyway, If you are buddies with them so well, could you tell them to pull the martin julian manager signed autograph of Bob Fitzsimmons off of their psa autograph facts page. maybe they will listen to you as they have heard it from us already and refuse to pull it, even with proof.

It's the first Bob Fitzsimmons example on their autograph facts page of Robert Fitzsimmons.

Thank you Mike.

[sago]

Originally Posted by travrosty

What you don't realize is that you are spending time defending them here and they don't even want to come on here and defend themselves!

They let you do it for them, they don't bother.

Would it be ok to quote this in other threads?

[Forever Young]

Originally Posted by sago

Would it be ok to quote this in other threads?

Good God and baby Jesus, please don't encourage him. I beg of thee.

[earlywynnfan]

Originally Posted by Forever Young

Good God and baby Jesus, please don't encourage him. I beg of thee.

I think you missed his point. If I'm reading this correctly, I think he's saying you could post the same thing in any Peter Nash or Todd Mueller thread.

Ken

[thenavarro]

Originally Posted by travrosty

Mike, I have a serious question. If you could be so kind to answer
What would I have to show you that would make you say "these people don't know what they are doing, because that is just ridiculous and over the line"
is there anything? because i dont think there is anything at this point.

Let me answer that with the following. I fully realize and understand that the work product of PSA/DNA is not perfect, and in some areas, is severely lacking and irresponsible from time to time. They are NOT a perfect mousetrap, and they are not really designed to be better than any specific individual that has a passion and love and study of certain signatures IMO. They are there to provide a limited service IMO, not a total comprehensive expert analysis, and as long as the user realizes that, it's a good service.

The damand put on them timewise, in my opinion, does not allow for a full comprehensive examination of every item. (irregardless of what their marketing literature or verbage on websites or LOA's or LOR's might state) However, the flip side of that is, the fees that they charge clients, are NOT enough to expect a full comprehensive examination of every item. I, as a customer, realize that I get what I'm willing to pay for, and if I'm not willing to pay a price point that would support a full comprehensive review, then I should not expect perfection.

People want and expect a somewhat reasonable turnaround time, and that leads to assumptions being made sometime, and employees "authenticating" out of their realm at times, and downright carelessness and negligence at other times. Is that the ideal situation? Hell no, but for the limited prices we pay for their services and for the turnaround times we expect, it IS going to happen.

I liken it to myself at times, I'm pretty good at what I do for a living, but admittedly, there are moments in certain days, where I flat out drop the ball. That doesn't mean that I'm not good at what I do, that just means that I'm human like everyone else walking this planet.

I also know that I don't expect them to produce marketing literature saying "hey, we drop the ball sometimes", "we are occasionally careless", "we have certified preprints, secretarials, and autopens","we occasionally pass one without exemplars because it's part of a collection where the ones we do know appear to be real", anymore than I expect Budweiser to produce advertising saying "hey, our beer really doesn't taste great, it's actually kinda nasty, and guess what, it's not really less filling either, it will give you a beer gut". They are in business to sell their service, which they've done a helluva job promoting and marketing, and which is in my opinion, a DECENT service. Not an end all, be all. Sure, there WILL be instances to where their service or opinion flat out sucks, like in some of the instances you point out.

I've found the people (at least the ones that I know or do business with) that work and consult for them to be good, decent, honorable people in dealings that I've had with them personally, both with PSA, and outside of PSA. That's one of the reasons I support Collectors Universe, not because I love everything the company does, but most of the people I've known over the years that have come and gone from there, or are still there, have always treated me with respect and fairness when dealing with them, in all phases, before, during, and even after their stints with CU. I have run across an occasional individual with them that I don't particularly care for, but that is to be expected EVERYWHERE.

I don't know if that sufficiently addresses your questions, but my hands hurt and I'm getting tired of being on the PC for now.


Have a good night,

Mike

[travrosty]

Can you at least admit this "worlds experts" nonsense is all a bunch of baloney? Is it not an embarrassment for them to make that claim?

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by thenavarro

I've found the people (at least the ones that I know or do business with) that work and consult for them to be good, decent, honorable people in dealings that I've had with them personally, both with PSA, and outside of PSA.

Mike

Mike - Just curious, did you ever have any dealings with Steve Rocchi while he was with PSA? And if so, would you include him in your description of PSA people?

[thenavarro]

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

Mike - Just curious, did you ever have any dealings with Steve Rocchi while he was with PSA? And if so, would you include him in your description of PSA people?

No sir, to my knowledge I've never had any direct dealings with Steve Rocchi.

Mike

[steve B]

Stuff like this is what I really don't like about autograph collecting.

I'm reasonably sure Travis is right about the exemplars and one is similar to the auction lot, but if someone handed me printouts of the two exemplars he shows with the context of the letter and contract? removed, And asked if they were done by the same person I'd say no.

They don't look at all alike.

So how the heck can anyone reliably authenticate anything, even with exemplars?


Steve B

[shelly]

I will go out on limb here. I would say the tpa's should stay as far away as possible from boxing. It is a lose lose prop.

[travrosty]

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

Mike - Just curious, did you ever have any dealings with Steve Rocchi while he was with PSA? And if so, would you include him in your description of PSA people?

Mike, it doesnt matter, are they good at what they do? Is it honest to cert an autograph with no exemplars. PSA and JSA did it with the tom sayers, it is documented, and jsa did it with george dixon. Is that honest?

Is it honest to leave up a bob fitzsimmons autograph on autograph facts after they know it isnt a real bob fitzsimmons autograph and was signed by his wife. is that honest, is that decent, is that helping the collector?

Just a few questions.

[jhs5120]

Originally Posted by sago

Would it be ok to quote this in other threads?

Bravo!

[JimStinson]

Originally Posted by thenavarro

anymore than I expect Budweiser to produce advertising saying "hey, our beer really doesn't taste great, it's actually kinda nasty, and guess what, it's not really less filling either, it will give you a beer gut". Mike

Did I hear someone say ....BUDWEISER ??? Their advertising says "Its the KING of Beers" ....you mean its not ???

And I read the label and it says "consumption of alcoholic beverages can be harmful to your health" ....What is up with that ???

And last but not least what ticked me off the most is I watched the commercial on TV and two guys uncapped a couple Budweiser's and about a dozen skinny models in bikini's started dancing around their swimming pool. So I tried it and ...no models , no pool ...NOTHING !!! not even a couple fat broads in house dresses ...nada ! Is that what you guys mean by clever marketing ? ...........Cheers !
_______________________
jim@stinsonsports.com

BUYING BASEBALL AUTOGRAPHS
stinsonsports.com

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by travrosty

Mike, I have a serious question. If you could be so kind to answer.

What would I have to show you that would make you say "these people don't know what they are doing, because that is just ridiculous and over the line"

is there anything? because i dont think there is anything at this point.

No , but I can say that with 100% certainty that IMHO, you are a boil on the ass of any forum.

WHO CARES ABOUT Joe Choscky and Julian Lennon. Never heard of them and most normal autograph collectors could care LESS. Except moron boxing collectors such as yourself, It's such a speck of the hobby IT DOESNT matter, The more you try to make it matter, the more collectors could car less due to your eyes sight problem and deductive reasoning skills. You can't see clearly when it comes to anything PSA or JSA and also Cant Understand Normal Thinking, so what's the point, except your head.

[Paulanthony]

Originally Posted by Fuddjcal

No , but I can say that with 100% certainty that IMHO, you are a boil on the ass of any forum.

No , but I can say that with 100% certainty that IMHO, you are a boil on the ass of JSA. PSA

WHO CARES ABOUT Joe Choscky and Julian Lennon. Never heard of them and most normal autograph collectors could care LESS. Except moron boxing collectors such as yourself, It's such a speck of the hobby IT DOESNT matter, The more you try to make it matter, the more collectors could car less due to your eyes sight problem and deductive reasoning skills. You can't see clearly when it comes to anything PSA or JSA and also Cant Understand Normal Thinking, so what's the point, except your head.

You really should say what's on your mind don't hold back. Reading your post gave me An ice-cream headache.
I don't agree Travis uses deductive reasoning. Just the opposite, His reasoning is based on observations which contrasts with deductive reasoning, his conclusions are arrived at by specific examples of known autographs he has obtained and studied for many years. Which is inductive to support his findings. According to you all Boxing Autograph Collectors are Morons. Travis is a Moron. All Morons are Boxing Collectors. I happen to be one of those Morons who like Boxing Autographs. I also like reading the expertise opinion of Travis. In the autograph world of boxing you could say Travis is a Sniper. If the experts don't get it right they end up in the cross hairs. The bottom line is you can't get sniped if you get it right.

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by Paulanthony

You really should say what's on your mind don't hold back. Reading your post gave me An ice-cream headache.
I don't agree Travis uses deductive reasoning. Just the opposite, His reasoning is based on observations which contrasts with deductive reasoning, his conclusions are arrived at by specific examples of known autographs he has obtained and studied for many years. Which is inductive to support his findings. According to you all Boxing Autograph Collectors are Morons. Travis is a Moron. All Morons are Boxing Collectors. I happen to be one of those Morons who like Boxing Autographs. I also like reading the expertise opinion of Travis. In the autograph world of boxing you could say Travis is a Sniper. If the experts don't get it right they end up in the cross hairs. The bottom line is you can't get sniped if you get it right.

nicely put Paul, Thanks

[travrosty]

that's right, if they get it right like they are suppose to, they got nothing to worry about. i wouldnt even bother if they were good at what they claim they are good at. I only comment on their lack of skills because what they are doing is so egregious, so ridiculous, so blatantly wrong that collectors deserve to know what they are getting themselves into when they see one of these magic golden ticket 'certs' from a company that doesnt know joe louis from louis armstrong.

[travrosty]

Mike, you criticize me and a few others that show these mistakes, and you wish we wouldn't. But think about it, just when did psa start this "no opinion due to a lack of exemplars"?

It only started happening just about 1 year ago, before that I cannot remember them ever saying that on a boxing autograph. Why is that?

It's because we held their feet to the fire. We made it better for collectors by pressuring psa and jsa to do the right thing and not just hand out a cert for the Tom, Dick and Harry boxing autographs. But thanks for slamming us for helping the collector in this way.

And when psa SHOULD issue a cert to an autograph that easily has exemplars avaiable, but instead say there is none, I am going to hold their feet to the fire for those too, because they refused to do a modicum of work to find them. 2 minutes on the internet on a a g00gle search to find Martin Julian's signature on his own letterhead and on a fight contract is not asking too much.

[thenavarro]

Travis typed: "Mike, you criticize me and a few others that show these mistakes, and you wish we wouldn't."

I reply: Travis, I don't recall ever indicating that I wish you wouldn't. Quite frankly, I find a lot of your posts entertaining for various reasons. By all means, post all you want to, type your fingers off. If I wished you wouldn't post, I would simply block you, it's not hard to do. Out of curiousity, which others did I criticize? I know it wasn't Mark O., as his posts are usually quite informative with detailed illustrations and what appears to be a fairly large exemplar database, and appears to be well organized at that. Usually when he posts, he does a good job of backing things up.

Travis typed: "But think about it, just when did psa start this "no opinion due to a lack of exemplars"? It only started happening just about 1 year ago, before that I cannot remember them ever saying that on a boxing autograph. Why is that?"

I reply: I thought I already addressed that in one of my replies earlier, perhaps you missed it with the flurry of replies you were typing. Here, I'll put it here again. I typed "Perhaps you are making a difference Travis (not Mr. Roste) ?"

Travis typed: "It's because we held their feet to the fire. We made it better for collectors by pressuring psa and jsa to do the right thing and not just hand out a cert for the Tom, Dick and Harry boxing autographs. But thanks for slamming us for helping the collector in this way."

I reply: You are welcome I guess. I didn't slam you for doing that, I slammed you for railing on PSA/DNA for not certing the Martin Julian autograph, which I found to be a direct contradiction to when you slam them for certing without exemplars.

Travis typed: "And when psa SHOULD issue a cert to an autograph that easily has exemplars avaiable, but instead say there is none, I am going to hold their feet to the fire for those too, because they refused to do a modicum of work to find them. 2 minutes on the internet on a a g00gle search to find Martin Julian's signature on his own letterhead and on a fight contract is not asking too much."

I reply: I'll make a note to do a google search next time I need exemplars, and another note to make myself realize that 2 minutes is all it takes to establish images I find on google as reliable exemplars. Just as an FYI, I've seen forgeries on legitimate letterhead and on contracts signed by proxies. Just because items are on letterhead and/or contracts does not necessarily make them legitimate as I'm sure you know. Perhaps the ones for Martin Julian are legit, I've got no idea as I've never googled him/her and don't plan on starting.

Have a good night,

Mike