Question on T206 Sheet Layouts - RE: Mastro Wagner Card

[wolf441]

My apologies if this subject has already been covered (I did a quick search, but there are obviously quite a few threads on the T206 Wagner). If the original story of the Mastro Wagner card's origin is true and it was hand cut from a T206 sheet (along with its Eddie Plank "brother" card) back in the 1970's, why was there only one Wagner (and Plank) on the sheet? I've read quite a bit of the backstory, including "The Card", but all details about the original uncut sheet are pretty vague and generally told 2nd & 3rd hand. From the extensive research of the T206 experts on this site, it seems to me at least to be generally agreed that the cards were lined up vertically on the sheets with approximately four cards of the same player in a column (thus the relative 4:1 scarcity between same name top/bottom mis-cuts and different name mis-cuts). Is the prevaling theory that the Mastro Wagner came from a partial sheet or that the actual uncut sheet story itself is apocryphal? Or is it possible that there were rows on an uncut T206 sheet (perhaps the top & bottom, or either one or the other?) that only consisted of one player and not repeated on the sheet? The idea that the Wagner and Plank were solely on the top row or bottom row of a sheet and nowhere else and thus short printed could lend credence to the story of the original plate being damaged early in the print run and rendering the Plank (and perhaps even the Wagner) unusable in subsequent runs. The argument against this is the fact that every other player in that one row should also have been short printed and there does not seem to be any evidence to support this fact.

I'd be interested in any thoughts from the board and again, my apologies if I am going over ground that has already been covered.

Steve

[I Only Smoke 4 the Cards]

I have mentioned this idea several times. Whenever i have people just ignore my comments like were never said.

[T206Collector]

This has been discussed and debated a lot on here. If I recall, the theory is that the sheet was not a final sheet, but a proof of some sort, which is supported by the colors on certain of the players shown being somewhat different than their normal T206 cards.

[I Only Smoke 4 the Cards]

Originally Posted by T206Collector

This has been discussed and debated a lot on here. If I recall, the theory is that the sheet was not a final sheet, but a proof of some sort, which is supported by the colors on certain of the players shown being somewhat different than their normal T206 cards.

Which players?

[T206Collector]

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=123958

[I Only Smoke 4 the Cards]

I was confused about the original topic. I have mentioned several times about contacting the guy who sold Mastro "The Card." I asked if anyone had spoken to him or had any information on the other cards that Mastro purchased. Nobody ever responded to those posts.

[wolf441]

Just to clarify, my initial post is in relation to the "Gretzky" Wagner that Mastro supposedly bought from a dealer that cut it from a complete uncut sheet and then trimmed to get the PSA 8 rating. I was not referring to the 5 card "test proof" strip that Barry Halper once owned. I have my doubts about any connection of that strip to the layout of the original sheets.

[Jlighter]

Originally Posted by I Only Smoke 4 the Cards

I was confused about the original topic. I have mentioned several times about contacting the guy who sold Mastro "The Card." I asked if anyone had spoken to him or had any information on the other cards that Mastro purchased. Nobody ever responded to those posts.

In The Card, the original owner claims that he wants to write a book and does not want to release the photos to the general public.

[deadballfreaK]

I find the 206 layout/printing topic fascinating. I have seen the 4 to 1 ratio for single/double name misprints and it certainly seems that single names predominate. But has anyone ever looked at all the cards that are fat on top and have no second name? I have seen a lot of them. These have to be on the top row, right? Seems like too many to be on a sheet with many vertical rows.

[Craig M]

Hi Steve,

Threads such as this one are so very interesting and I am always curious why they do not pick up steam.

Your post has so many unanswered questions and it is fun just to ponder.

For starters, I am almost 99.9% sure that a partial or full uncut T206 sheet does exist. This is a bold statement but one I am convinced of. You ask then, where is it? It is with the gentleman that does not post to this site but reads the mail here on a daily basis. It is a gentleman that could care less about money because he has more than he knows what to do with.

You ask then, why doesn't he show the world?

Now that wouldn't be much fun would it. What then would us T206 guys do with our time instead of trying to piece a sheet together.

I am one of those that is trying to do this by selecting a Sweet Cap Series, working outer borders on inward.

My collection of T206's with the Factory #30 anomalies have grown and given me clues as to who sits on the bottom row. I even have acquired a T206 with an anomaly that sits in the right border.

The interesting part about this is that you do not need to own a single T206, to be piecing a sheet(s) together; you simply can search the web for scans and pics of front and reverse; saving them to your hard drive and categorizing them. A time consuming but cheap way to work on piecing a sheet together.

Regards kind sir,

Craig

[I Only Smoke 4 the Cards]

I agree that there is a sheet out there. I dont think Alan Ray had the only one in the world.

[wolf441]

Originally Posted by Craig M

Hi Steve,

Threads such as this one are so very interesting and I am always curious why they do not pick up steam.

Your post has so many unanswered questions and it is fun just to ponder.

For starters, I am almost 99.9% sure that a partial or full uncut T206 sheet does exist. This is a bold statement but one I am convinced of. You ask then, where is it? It is with the gentleman that does not post to this site but reads the mail here on a daily basis. It is a gentleman that could care less about money because he has more than he knows what to do with.

You ask then, why doesn't he show the world?

Now that wouldn't be much fun would it. What then would us T206 guys do with our time instead of trying to piece a sheet together.

I am one of those that is trying to do this by selecting a Sweet Cap Series, working outer borders on inward.

My collection of T206's with the Factory #30 anomalies have grown and given me clues as to who sits on the bottom row. I even have acquired a T206 with an anomaly that sits in the right border.

The interesting part about this is that you do not need to own a single T206, to be piecing a sheet(s) together; you simply can search the web for scans and pics of front and reverse; saving them to your hard drive and categorizing them. A time consuming but cheap way to work on piecing a sheet together.

Regards kind sir,

Craig

Thanks for the kind words Craig!

The great thing about this site is that there are so many pros on here that have really put in some serious time and research in trying to figure out the layout of the sheets (unfortunately with 3 kids and my job, I'm limited to just "throwing" out ideas rather than spending a ton of time being able to do the legwork - hopefully when I retire, I'll be able to make the research a major hobby!). There are so many different ways to attack the question. From the Jantz's top-bottom name combo research to Steve B's Piedmont 150 plate scratch working sheet to Ted, Tim, Scot, et al's exhaustive research, the source material is incredible. Even if the members do not always agree with each other, I respect the hard work that all of these guys put in to try and figure out these questions.

Unfortunately, I don't think that an uncut sheet will ever be found. I just don't believe that the factory workers at the time would have valued them enough to set many aside and any that did get set aside would have had to have survived 100 years of paper drives for two world wars, fires, floods, property demolitions, etc.

It would be incredible of one ever did surface though...

Thanks again,

Steve

[Craig M]

Steve,

Don't let too many years pass to begin working on your T206 sheet layout project.

Even with your three kids and a job (don't forget your wife), you need a little relaxing down time to yourself and so treat yourself to some research. Combing the web and adding a front/reverse scan/pic to your database just a few minutes each day will be a nice destressor!

For starters, pick a cigarette brand, series and factory number.

Then pick a print group (I chose print group 1).

I started looking for double namers both same name and two names, along the way looked for print lines and crop marks on the reverse. Discovered that there were Factory 30 anoms in the borders and so forth.

It's been a fun ride...

Craig

[Jantz]

Steve

I don't have any answers to your questions, but with what we know now about the Mastro Wagner, it would be nice if the origins and details of what the sheet/strip/partial sheet looked like were revealed.

Ken

One player that stands out in my mind with fat top borders is Stephens St.Louis. I always take a second look at his cards.

Craig M

If you haven't already, add Wagner (left shoulder) SC 350-30 to your list of players with a factory 30 sheet number in the border.


Jantz

[Craig M]

Jantz,

By chance, do you own that card? If so, pm me.

Craig