The T206 Titus Bubble

[CTrux]

Originally Posted by seablaster

I'm just curious as to why you would consider the destruction of the Titus hoard as unethical.

Really? Well... I'd direct you towards an ethicist and/or a historian/art historian. Professionally, I'm neither. (However, from what I know of Plato, Aristotle, Kant, and John Stewart Mill, et al., I'm confident that they'd likely think that preserving the cards is the most ethical thing to do).

In my own opinion, I consider it unethical because the cards are part of our collective heritage, both as collectors and as Americans in general. Destroying the cards deprives many, many, many other people from enjoying them and encourages other people to similarly destroy other cards. (Imagine if there were no Mantles to collect). Meanwhile, only greed is served and, in the long term, we would risk losing the hobby in general if/when others decide to hoard and destroy.

So, I think the cards should be preserved and the price left to natural market forces.

[rdwyer]

Seems to me, it would be better to hoard them. Then when prices go up, sell them.

[seablaster]

Originally Posted by CTrux

Really? Well... I'd direct you towards an ethicist and/or a historian/art historian. Professionally, I'm neither. (However, from what I know of Plato, Aristotle, Kant, and John Stewart Mill, et al., I'm confident that they'd likely think that preserving the cards is the most ethical thing to do).

In my own opinion, I consider it unethical because the cards are part of our collective heritage, both as collectors and as Americans in general. Destroying the cards deprives many, many, many other people from enjoying them and encourages other people to similarly destroy other cards. (Imagine if there were no Mantles to collect). Meanwhile, only greed is served and, in the long term, we would risk losing the hobby in general if/when others decide to hoard and destroy.

So, I think the cards should be preserved and the price left to natural market forces.

I appreciate your response.

I agree that these cards represent an aspect of the history of baseball and of America in general; part of me even felt conflicted throwing out 1989 Topps cards.

That being said, these Titus cards are the property of the buyer and I feel they are within their right to destroy them if they wanted to. Would it be unfortunate? Definitely. Would other collectors be angry if they were destroyed? Absolutely...but I don't think it's unethical.

I think the market manipulation accompanied by hoarding is an interesting one. The hoarder puts himself in difficult situation; the more they acquire, the competition will become more significant, and prices paid will move upward accordingly. Case in point, the Obak Miller.

I don't think destroying them would realize the most gain for the hoarder. I think the only way it could be done is as already suggested. Hoard them and then slowly bleed them out into the marketplace while perceived scarity and demand continue to make them valuable.

[CTrux]

Originally Posted by seablaster

I appreciate your response.

I agree that these cards represent an aspect of the history of baseball and of America in general; part of me even felt conflicted throwing out 1989 Topps cards.

That being said, these Titus cards are the property of the buyer and I feel they are within their right to destroy them if they wanted to. Would it be unfortunate? Definitely. Would other collectors be angry if they were destroyed? Absolutely...but I don't think it's unethical.

I think the market manipulation accompanied by hoarding is an interesting one. The hoarder puts himself in difficult situation; the more they acquire, the competition will become more significant, and prices paid will move upward accordingly. Case in point, the Obak Miller.

I don't think destroying them would realize the most gain for the hoarder. I think the only way it could be done is as already suggested. Hoard them and then slowly bleed them out into the marketplace while perceived scarity and demand continue to make them valuable.

Oh, 1989 Topps! We must be the same age. I loved those cards. Sadly, they were--as you know--massively over produced. As a result, I can't see any ethical issue with trashing them. Just sentimental, maybe...

I'm glad that you noted the property rights issue. That's also interesting. However, I'm of the inclination that property rights should--at some point-- succumb to historical value, at least for some items. I hold the T206 set in high regard. I want my kids' kids to see and enjoy them (in person, not in a museum). So, the historical value is--for me--high enough to check my personal property right to destroy them. For me, what provides that "check" is ethics.

Regarding the buying-and-selling vs. buying-and-destroying, from a market perspective I have to admit that it would be really interesting to see what would be more profitable. If the hoarder could get a following/story/myth going about the Titus card, it would be very interesting to see how far up the T206 rarity list he/she could drive the card.

[SetBuilder]

I spend a lot of my time reading philosophy so I thought I'd chime in here. I've been wanting a Titus card for my set since I started collecting a year ago but I've given up the hunt for now. I'll buy it as part of a larger lot but I don't feel like paying the premium for it knowing what I know about this particular card.

Here we have an unnamed hoarder who has a huge fetish for the Titus 'stache (you can take this literally or figuratively); is trying to realize a profit by driving up prices (i.e. cornering the market), or is trying to stroke his ego by controlling the supply. I don't believe that merely "liking" a card is enough of a motivation to hoard it compulsively, especially when he is in possession of hundreds of copies of the same card.

Ethics teaches us what conduct is to be valued, and what conduct is detrimental, to society as a whole. One test I like to use to determine if a character trait is ethical (or virtuous) is to ask "what would happen if everyone acted in this way?" That is, what would happen if a great number of people began to hoard valuable items compulsively? The world would not be a happy place, I would imagine. This is why vices are toxic to mankind, because if hedonism is valued over everything else, we have chaos.

I do not believe this conduct is acceptable. If you want a profit bad enough, produce something instead of mooching.

[tiger8mush]

Originally Posted by SetBuilder

If you want a profit bad enough, produce something instead of mooching.

I'd argue that the hoarder is producing a shortage

Will he/she actually profit? I doubt it. Every card gets more and more expensive. Eventually when he/she sells, the price realized on each card will begin to diminish with every Titus that is released into the market to the point where it falls back to normal pre-hoard price.

Has it been established that this Titus hoarder is doing it in the name of profit? I can't imagine that is the goal.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by SetBuilder

Ethics teaches us what conduct is to be valued, and what conduct is detrimental, to society as a whole. One test I like to use to determine if a character trait is ethical (or virtuous) is to ask "what would happen if everyone acted in this way?" That is, what would happen if a great number of people began to hoard valuable items compulsively? The world would not be a happy place, I would imagine. This is why vices are toxic to mankind, because if hedonism is valued over everything else, we have chaos.

I do not believe this conduct is acceptable. If you want a profit bad enough, produce something instead of mooching.

How does society benefit if something is borderline and NOBODY does it? Drawing a hard line on wether something is ethical based on benefit to society is quite the challenge.

As an example, I don't think that fast food employees being lazy or not caring about doing a good job is good for society, or for them. But it's not unethical.

How many of our prewar cards are still around because of hoarding? Or other slightly off behavior. You could say that by not sending them off to a WWII paper drive they hindered the countrys efforts. Ethical?
Having a few hundred caramel cards in the attic for a century or so? Surely nobody benefitted over that time, although they have now. Ethical?
Or how about bringing home a sheet of cards your company is printing? They're only going to throw them out, and your kid will enjoy cutting them out and doing whatever kids do with cards. surely the company would think of it as stealing, while to the kid it's a marvelous gift. And a century on, those have become treasures to some people even if they're cut a bit crooked and might be missing a color or six. Ethical?


If someone wants to buy a bunch of the same card that's really not a problem. Some people will pay a bit more and to them it's a detriment. Some will sell for more, and to them it's a benefit. Seems like the net result is nothing.

And sometime get a look at the volume of stuff any large museum keeps "for study" It's usually orders of magnitude more than they display. No immediate benefit there, maybe no benefit in my lifetime. But maybe someday.

Steve B

[tschock]

I fail to see any ethical dilemma at all when dealing with the difference between the want of person A versus the want of person B. Now if we were talking the needs of these 2 persons (food, water, inalienable rights, etc), that is a different story.

Personally what I find unethical and reprehensible is the assumption that "society's wants" trump and individual's inalienable right to "pursuit of happiness" when it doesn't impinge on another's inalienable right to life or liberty.

[ullmandds]

What I find unethical is when someone has a card I want that may be worth a few hundo...and just because I want it it becomes a $1000 card...now that's not cool!

[tiger8mush]

Trimming a T206 Wagner, grading it as factory-cut = unethical
Selling cards on the b/s/t with creases but saying your loupe showed a perfect card = unethical
Creating a T206 website pimping fake T206s that you created and selling them = unethical
this link below = unethical
http://www.zoklet.net/bbs/showthread.php?t=86171

destroying your own t206s = whatever

[ullmandds]

http://www.zoklet.net/bbs/showthread.php?t=86171...what a seedy place that is...people with moniker cat f$cker hang out there!!!!

[tiger8mush]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

what a seedy place that is...people with moniker cat f$cker hang out there!!!!

thats an unethical act as well

[Jlighter]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

http://www.zoklet.net/bbs/showthread.php?t=86171...what a seedy place that is...people with moniker cat f$cker hang out there!!!!

This Website just shows why we need monitoring.

How was this found.

[tiger8mush]

Originally Posted by Jlighter

This Website just shows why we need monitoring.

How was this found.

do a google search for "vintage baseball card scandal", its 2nd in the list of results

[HRBAKER]

This is some heavy stuff for baseball cards.

[SetBuilder]

Originally Posted by tiger8mush

Trimming a T206 Wagner, grading it as factory-cut = unethical
Selling cards on the b/s/t with creases but saying your loupe showed a perfect card = unethical
Creating a T206 website pimping fake T206s that you created and selling them = unethical
this link below = unethical
http://www.zoklet.net/bbs/showthread.php?t=86171

destroying your own t206s = whatever

You don't just simply destroy a T206 card. There has to be a motivation behind it.

All of us here are part of a collecting "community". The majority of us are decent people making a good faith attempt to put together collections, hopefully doing so with the consideration of others who are attempting the same. The last thing we need is a shady character burning cards to make his collection more valuable, or hoarding a player to make it harder for the rest of us to pay for a common card. It's hard enough to complete a T206 set as it is.

[tiger8mush]

Originally Posted by SetBuilder

You don't just simply destroy a T206 card.

Yet we destroy '89 Topps cards? Where is the boundary of ethics drawn? At '53 Bowmans?

[ullmandds]

"It's hard enough to complete a T206 set as it is. " that's funny! it'd be a lot easier...quicker...cheaper to corner the market on a much rarer caramel common card!