Teaching moments

[1880nonsports]

I think the concern is that anyone can view this site and the fear that such education will fall into the hands of forgers. I think what you're asking for is great in spirit but there are unfortunately those who will use the info to do harm to the hobby.

IMHO that makes little sense. I suppose that all the autograph guides and exemplars on legal doccuments that are part of the public record or available utilizing the internet should be kept under lock and key? It's not as if they can't be acessed. Perhaps people should stop talking amongst themselves in case someone they thought was a friend is in reality a forger on the prowl for more information. If the forger's "tell" is a secret to a select few - they continue to make them until they can't sell them - make different ones -study more techniques or practice more with or without net54. People in general support the community by sharing their knowledge and stories. The ghosts around the corner are winning again as we become spooked by our own shadows.

[Mr. Zipper]

Originally Posted by 1880nonsports

IMHO that makes little sense. I suppose that all the autograph guides and exemplars on legal doccuments that are part of the public record or available utilizing the internet should be kept under lock and key? It's not as if they can't be acessed. Perhaps people should stop talking amongst themselves in case someone they thought was a friend is in reality a forger on the prowl for more information. If the forger's "tell" is a secret to a select few - they continue to make them until they can't sell them - make different ones -study more techniques or practice more with or without net54. People in general support the community by sharing their knowledge and stories. The ghosts around the corner are winning again as we become spooked by our own shadows.

Have you ever authenticated an autograph, that is, put your seal of approval on it in a public selling forum? Do you know the name of one active forger? If the answer is no, then you are living in a theoretical world, not the reality that is.

Yes, everyone has access to public documents and authentic exemplars. But the subtle traits authenticators use, are not obvious... even to a forger who may do a good job at replicating the formation. Should experienced collectors and dealers and authenticators just lay it all out... information that may have taken decades to learn?

Of course people share. I share with other trusted friends and I was blessed to have mentors that shared with me. These things are learned through time and effort. I never expected a stranger on a message board to lay it all out and connect every dot for me. As it is, there is a LOT of general tips and observations shared here... enough to get anyone off on a good start to putting it all together. But some people always want more.

I can tell you for a fact that good forgers listen to feedback and refine their work. I've seen it in specific cases where information has appeared publicly, and poof... A short time later the product has been improved. It still has their fingerprints on it, but it has been changed.

Maybe the low level hacks don't troll for feedback, but the good ones are always looking to improve. It is an ongong game of cat and mouse.

Anyone who says otherwise is mistaken or simply has never encountered a truly skilled forger.

[1880nonsports]

what do YOU come here for? It is after all an internet chat room about autographs. I have a couple of autographs and a few baseball cards among my holdings. I know a fair amount about tobacco cards, packs, and advertising. I might get 3/4 emails a month questioning the values, attributes, and vagueries about those items. I also participate on the non-sports forum. I can't think of one time I held back proprietary information gleaned over 20 years in response to a reasonable inquiry. I come to a FORUM - to laugh, cry, bitch, and share information with others. From your side holding back information so that the forger of whatever items doesn't get smarter is silly to me - if people keep outing the balls and they stop selling - I would think the sophisticated forger would be able to figure it out or perhaps move on to the next autograph. I don't suppose they're walking around with a T shirt saying I'M THE FORGER and they might even attend the national or trade shows or whatever and be UNKNOWN to the people they are talking with - maybe even broaching the subject of forged auto's and "what's wrong with them". I would think that forgers generally would have been involved in the hobby itself and most likely still are - as they continue to need the "tools" such as photos, balls, bats, and the rest.... At the very least I guess it comes down to you knowing something may be no good - and the friends with whom you share - but leaving the other members of the community holding the bag if an item came around...... I do agree that there are things I might share with friends and not with others and that ANYONE in ANY hobby should be doing most of the requisite work themselves as it's never up to others to do the work you should be responsible for yourself. I just think that the world would be a smaller place if like the Amish perhaps - we think of others before ourselves. No ill will here and sorry for the rather scrambled reply as it's late and I lost my ass tonight :-) I just hate the thought of scumbags taking advantage of anyone......

[1880nonsports]

I'm sure the people on the board (I'm a new viewer) do appreciate the suggestions of good and bad - or I'm on the fence - from respected collectors, dealers, and authenticators. I also don't think the authenticators need to share everything that led them to such a conclusion unless they want to - as it's how they earn their money. I just think there is more to be gained by exposure than silence. I also believe a smart and resourseful person - forger or not will find out things that make them better with or without - if at all...... I respect your right to think differently about it - especially as you are actually (it seems) more involved in the hobby than I - and therefore bring more experience to the table. If nothing else what you've said gives me something to think about and perhaps I'll come around :-) as my thoughts related to dishonesty usually revolve around alterations to my cardboard buddies......Now that I've come here and read some of the posts on this forum - I'm worried about my Buffalo Bill Cody autograph with a University Archives LOA from the 1990's - autograph collecting is tough business and I'm a light sleeper :-(

[toyman55]

Some people get up in the morning and get a cup of coffee, I come here to net 54 just for discussions like this. Being a novice collector I love this forum just to hear what collectors have to say that I can learn from. As far as this forum helping forgers, If they just bought Ron Keurajian's Baseball Hall of Fame Autographs book they would learn a lot. In the past 20 years that I have been collecting I was burned so many times it's not funny. I respect all who are willing to help out here to prevent the forgers from getting through to us. Being on the West Coast I think we are at a disadvantage because it appears to me that most of the great baseball memorabilia collectors are on the East Coast. Thanks to all who take the time to give their opinions. As an afterthought I actually like they yay or nays as it challenges me to figure out what is wrong with the autograph rather than being told.
Have a Great Day all.

[Leon]

There is a fine balance between helping hobbyists and letting out small trade secrets that help scammers. This is a common debate. I think each person has to decide what is best fo them. For me, I will tell most information publicly....but there are a few very small, but important things, that I don't make public. happy collecting

(for the record, I have known Henry - 1880snonsports - for 15+ yrs and he (hi Henry) is one of the nicest guys in the hobby...and maybe the most ethical, I have ever met)

[1880nonsports]

you.ve made me blush...... and as long as I'm turning red - it's worth noting the hammer price on that ACC in RE auction had me turning the same color. I've always had a lot of respect for you too - independent of the great job you do here.