Teaching moments

[1880nonsports]

that's mostly what it's all about with autographs - a feel based on experience - but think Travis echoed my feelings best about why it's important to share one's insights if one makes an informed opinion in a comunity such as this - the forger is only aided by silence........

[Mr. Zipper]

There are a few different levels of fakes.

The mass-produced fakes we commonly see are typically slowly drawn with signs of hesitation or wobble. They all look nearly identical and repeat the same exact flaws. There isn't much risk in pointing these out because these forgers are not out to fool experienced collectors. They make their money fooling casual buyers who don't do their homework. These are often accompanied by worthless COAs from "forensic experts"... another part of the ruse to fool uneducated buyers.

Then there are much more deceptive, well-executed fakes. These usually don't have any significant outstanding flaws, but they are detected by those with trained eyes because they "look off." Certain forgers adopt a "look" over time and those who have been watching closely pick up on the subtle characteristics that identify this type forger. But asking someone to describe it is much like asking someone to describe in words the difference between purple and blue.

[toybulldog]

I would love to see the OP's reasoning on their opinion, and when an expert or other members' come on stating 'yay or nay' on why they believe the autograph is good or bad by pointing out characteristics proving so.

What I believe you are saying is that you would actually like to see an autograph authenticated/proven real or not. PSA, JSA and others are not authenticators and do nothing to authenticate autographs. There is no proof or reasoning to the service they offer and there is no evidence that they are even performing the service/analysis as they claim. If these so-called "authentication companies" were to include there reasoning or proof in their LOA's then there would be an opportunity for a retort or evidence to the contrary (as with members on this board). Why give an opportunity for one's image to be diminished if you can get away without being challenged, tested or pushed for answers?

In some cases proof has been offered on this board...

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...rocky+marciano

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...ezzard+charles

post 121 here:
http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...yfield&page=13

post 51 here:
http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...lyfield&page=6

... and I can tell you there has been no quality increase in Ezzard Charles, Rocky Marciano, Mickey Walker or Evander Holyfield forgeries in the trade. Authentic autograph examples are to be had all over the net, not just here. Cop out?

[thetruthisoutthere]

When I first started exposing forgeries (and sellers of forgeries almost a decade ago) via blogging I always stated that I wasn't in it to educate, but to expose.

When I started exposing forgeries via video, I stated the same thing.

Everyone here is free to do what they choose.

I do share some information with my close friends. There is some information I don't share with anyone. My close friends sometimes share information with me and some they don't. We have a mutual respect there.

[travrosty]

Originally Posted by toybulldog

What I believe you are saying is that you would actually like to see an autograph authenticated/proven real or not. PSA, JSA and others are not authenticators and do nothing to authenticate autographs. There is no proof or reasoning to the service they offer and there is no evidence that they are even performing the service/analysis as they claim. If these so-called "authentication companies" were to include there reasoning or proof in their LOA's then there would be an opportunity for a retort or evidence to the contrary (as with members on this board). Why give an opportunity for one's image to be diminished if you can get away without being challenged, tested or pushed for answers?

In some cases proof has been offered on this board...

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...rocky+marciano

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...ezzard+charles

post 121 here:
http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...yfield&page=13

post 51 here:
http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...lyfield&page=6

... and I can tell you there has been no quality increase in Ezzard Charles, Rocky Marciano, Mickey Walker or Evander Holyfield forgeries in the trade. Authentic autograph examples are to be had all over the net, not just here. Cop out?

Exactly right, we ask to see exemplars, and how they authetnicate, they never show, so who know what they actually do. they go unchallenged by 99 % of the collecting public. You can't expose forgeries without educating. you have to prove forgeries and prove authentic autographs, otherwise there is no authentication going on. if the forgeries are so ridiculously obvious they dont require proof, then what service was really rendered?

[travrosty]

I know a few people here and there that won't share, and i can't for the life of me figure out why? I have even shared with them knowing they won't share back. It's ridiculous to keep the info to themselves only. Forgers aren't trolling the boards.

Like Mark said, it's not like the Marciano's, Charles, Louis and Liston fakes have gotten any better, and we will tell and show people all day what is wrong with the fakes.

If the abc and xyz companies (east-west connection) cert the bad ones anyway, then even worse. We fight the authentication companies who will cert loads of bad items as much as fighting the forgers.

because once the forgers find a service who will cert their fakes and make them worth 30 times as much, that is what really hurts the hobby, as much as the fake itself. They can send in that certain type of fake and get it certed all day long. 141 bad muhammad ali signed 8x 10 autographs in a row, all certed by abc, the forgers were busting out the bubbly on that one. champagne and cavier all around.

once the authentication company found out. did they issue an APB and tell people to be on the lookout for these bad Ali's? no, they do what they always do and shovel it under the rug, and they wont show what exemplars they used and who authenticated it. duck and cover, run and hide. same old song and dance. forgers are in heaven with checks and balances and company policies like this.

[shelly]

The secret is that most of the autographs posted on this site are slam dunk bad. It is the few that are not is what makes this a great place for opinions. It seems everyone has a certain autograph that they can see is bad long before anyone else on here. That is why I enjoy this site. The people on here dont know six thousand autographs they know one or two. They know them so well that I would bet on there opinion over any 3 party.
If the people that want to learn stick wilth one or two people get them down pat and then maybe move on to a few more at most.