1951 Topps Red Backs Oddity

[toppcat]

I responded to Matt over at the blog and he could be on to something:

"Comparing to Look n See, which is the nearest set in time with these dimensions, suggests a possible print array of 11 x 11 for 121 cards the size of a single Red Back. If you take 20 possible Teams and Connie Macks, that takes 40 slots and we add 52 to get to 92, so some would be double printed so there is room."

Intriguingly, Scoop, issued after Look n See, may have been produced in a 13 x 12 array (156 cards), which if you double print all the Red Backs (104 slots) and single print the Connie Macks and Teams (40) and add it all up, you get to 144 with 12 slots left over, so maybe a half dozen Red Back panels were triple prints.

I have no data on double prints in the Red Backs but I know there are some thoughts out there on how the short prints work in the Connie Macks and Teams. The cards were die cut (except Teams), with Red Backs being rounded on the corners and Connie Macks scored to allow the punchout of the player to work. That would probably play into how the sheets were arranged as those are two different processes.

Blue Backs and Major League All Stars could also have been produced on the same sheet then but without the Teams, which do not come with blue reverses.

[steve B]

The teams were die cut as well. This pic I borrowed from Ebay shows the tabs at left and right where the gaps in the die cutting knife were. (Probably a third one too, at top left)

Steve B

[Spike]

Good catch, those die-cut remnants could mean that Teams (both 1950 or undated) came on the same sheets as Connie Mack All-Stars for all printings, or at least used the same printer and sheet cutter. All of the high-grade Connie Macks I've seen at auction have the matching stubs.

[toppcat]

Originally Posted by steve B

The teams were die cut as well. This pic I borrowed from Ebay shows the tabs at left and right where the gaps in the die cutting knife were. (Probably a third one too, at top left)

Steve B

Yes, indeed-I was a bit imprecise but the Teams do indeed have some "nubs". There are more clues out there I bet.

[Volod]

Originally Posted by toppcat

"Comparing to Look n See, which is the nearest set in time with these dimensions, suggests a possible print array of 11 x 11 for 121 cards the size of a single Red Back. If you take 20 possible Teams and Connie Macks, that takes 40 slots and we add 52 to get to 92, so some would be double printed so there is room."

Intriguingly, Scoop, issued after Look n See, may have been produced in a 13 x 12 array (156 cards), which if you double print all the Red Backs (104 slots) and single print the Connie Macks and Teams (40) and add it all up, you get to 144 with 12 slots left over, so maybe a half dozen Red Back panels were triple prints.

I have no data on double prints in the Red Backs but I know there are some thoughts out there on how the short prints work in the Connie Macks and Teams. The cards were die cut (except Teams), with Red Backs being rounded on the corners and Connie Macks scored to allow the punchout of the player to work. That would probably play into how the sheets were arranged as those are two different processes.

Blue Backs and Major League All Stars could also have been produced on the same sheet then but without the Teams, which do not come with blue reverses.

Dave - Any use of math in an explanation kind of disorients me, as a dysarithmetic, but I'm trying to follow your analysis of possible sheet layouts.
Are you suggesting that the 51 Topps sheets were necessarily either 11x11" or 13x12"? I'm wondering how the blue-ink sheets might have been arranged. Since you would have a 52-count series of Bluebacks on a sheet with - what?- either 11 Major League All-Stars, or 8 of those, depending on whether or not the three Philly scarcities were included, how would that comport with your thoughts on the sheet dimensions?

[toppcat]

Originally Posted by Volod

Dave - Any use of math in an explanation kind of disorients me, as a dysarithmetic, but I'm trying to follow your analysis of possible sheet layouts.
Are you suggesting that the 51 Topps sheets were necessarily either 11x11" or 13x12"? I'm wondering how the blue-ink sheets might have been arranged. Since you would have a 52-count series of Bluebacks on a sheet with - what?- either 11 Major League All-Stars, or 8 of those, depending on whether or not the three Philly scarcities were included, how would that comport with your thoughts on the sheet dimensions?

Those two non sports sets are the of the same dimensions as the Red and Blue Backs (and of course half a Team or All Star card) and those are known sheet configurations for each (although neither non sport set was die cut. An 11 x 11 sheet is a little problematic though, isn't it as there would be at least one orphaned Red Back pair I think. Still the larger cards could have been printed on different sheets than the Red and Blue Backs.

There is some evidence the three short printed MLAS cards were printed separately but it's not conclusive. The Blues and the MLAS would have been printed at the same time I think.