Did Babe Ruth dominate baseball at the same level Wayne Gretzky did hockey?

[jp1216]

I love this debate. I'm a Gretzky fan - but he did have Messier and Kurri nearly from day one. Different times, different sports, but the debate is fun. Gretzky did influence his game, but I agree that Ruth transformed his more.

[Bpm0014]

I'm not a hockey fan in the least bit, and I may be the biggest baseball fan in the world, but I'm going to give maybe the most crazy stat in sports ever...

Wayne Gretzky is the career goals leader. If you take away every single one of his goals, he's STILL the NHL's all time leading scorer. I didn't believe it, lost a bet, and had to find out the hard way. But look it up.

[Zone91]

I am not talking about influence on the game I am only talking stats wise!!!

Wayne to me is FAR and beyond the athlete that no one else even comes close to in hockey...almost a 1000 points ahead of anyone else. That is like having 5200 hits in baseball...way more than Pete Rose had.

For me Babe would have had to have well over 1000 home runs and 5000 hits to be even close to Wayne's statistic dominance.

Post # 6

[Zone91]

Look at this very very closely:

Link:

http://statshockey.homestead.com/alltimepoints.html

Post # 7

[nsaddict]

Your polls are getting stranger? What's next, which HOF'er chewed the most tobacco during doubleheaders? However, being a hockey fan, Gretzky's career stats are incredible. But I always felt he was overrated as a player. His teammates "protected" him that aided his stats greatly. If he had played in the 50's, he would have NEVER had the same success as he would have been knocked around game after game. In my opinion (although a shorter career due to injuries), Bobby Orr was THE most dominant player of all time. He excelled on defense and more so on offense and was a brawler. Sort of like Ruth ,multi talented, pitcher/hitter. As a side note, his rookie cards are WAY overpriced as millions and millions were produced.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by nsaddict

Your polls are getting stranger? What's next, which HOF'er chewed the most tobacco during doubleheaders?

I believe that would be Lenny Dykstra.

[HRBAKER]

Originally Posted by Sean

I believe that would be Lenny Dykstra.

Man I have been asleep awhile if Lenny Dykstra is in the HOF.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by HRBAKER

Man I have been asleep awhile if Lenny Dykstra is in the HOF.

Sorry, I missed the HOF reference.

[Zone91]

billyb

Actually he played agaisnt some of the best players in the world:

Mario Lemieux, Steve Yzerman, Paul Coffey, Marc Messier (when they no longer played together), Patrick Roy, Ron Francis, Joe Sakic, Ray Bourque, Brett Hull, Luc Robitaille, Martin Brodeur, Bryan Trottier, Adam Oates and many many others!!!

Post # 10

[Rob D.]

Nobody ever misspells Babe Ruth's name. Case closed.

[billyb]

Everyone's stats were inflated during that time. I have seen all of Yzerman's career and he was great, but his talents today, would be greatly deiminished, as well as Gretzke's.
Remember, the World Hockey Association was active from 1972- 1979, and many stars, including Bobby Hull went over to the WHA.
In 1974, six teams were added, and in 1979, when the WHA folded, the NHL picked up 4 more of their teams, 21 totaled. It wasn't until 1889 and later, when the Soviets, and other Europeans came into the league. Wayne had already gathered a vast majoity of his points.
I know Gretzke didn't start until '79, but you can see how the league was watered down when he started his career.
I do not want to take away anything from Gretzke, I have met him, talked to him, and he is a very nice guy.
But my vote, as best hockey player of that era, was Orr, who changed the style for defensemen, the offensive defense men.
I am also old enough to have seen Howe and Richard play, against teams that they played on a regular basis. Just six teams, best in North America, and they seen you often enough to know all your moves and how to play you.
Comparing Gretzke's stats to Ruth, Ruth would have had to play half of his career against minor league players to get a good comparison.

But on that note, was Gretzke dominate in the NHL for his time.......yes.

[HOF Auto Rookies]

Originally Posted by billyb

Everyone's stats were inflated during that time. I have seen all of Yzerman's career and he was great, but his talents today, would be greatly deiminished, as well as Gretzke's.
Remember, the World Hockey Association was active from 1972- 1979, and many stars, including Bobby Hull went over to the WHA.
In 1974, six teams were added, and in 1979, when the WHA folded, the NHL picked up 4 more of their teams, 21 totaled. It wasn't until 1889 and later, when the Soviets, and other Europeans came into the league. Wayne had already gathered a vast majoity of his points.
I know Gretzke didn't start until '79, but you can see how the league was watered down when he started his career.
I do not want to take away anything from Gretzke, I have met him, talked to him, and he is a very nice guy.
But my vote, as best hockey player of that era, was Orr, who changed the style for defensemen, the offensive defense men.
I am also old enough to have seen Howe and Richard play, against teams that they played on a regular basis. Just six teams, best in North America, and they seen you often enough to know all your moves and how to play you.
Comparing Gretzke's stats to Ruth, Ruth would have had to play half of his career against minor league players to get a good comparison.

But on that note, was Gretzke dominate in the NHL for his time.......yes.

Come on man, you talk about how greatly diminished his stats would be, this and that, and claim you're from Hocketown (which is def. MN ) and you can't even spell his name right

Note, this is all in jest

[Sean]

Keep in mind also how important Ruth was to baseball. The White Sox had just thrown the World Series in 1919, and the details of their betrayal were slowly coming to light in 1920. This was potentially a disaster for baseball. It was at this time that Ruth began to really dominate the game. 54 home runs in 1920, 59 in 1921.
Ruth's unprecedented power captured the public's imagination at just the right time, distracting people from what was playing out in a Grand Jury in Chicago. It's not as if Ruth planned it that way of course, but even by coincidence he did save baseball from what could have been a public reletions disaster and redefined how the game would be played forever after.
I know Gretzky was the best ever when he came along, but I don't think he changed the way the game would be played the way the Babe did.

[Zone91]

Food for though NO one will EVER beat Wayne's stats ever in hockey...someone would need to have 300 points (No one but him has ever had a 200 point season) for almost 10 straight years or 150 points for almost 20 years. No one even gets 150 in their prime anymore let alone 300 points in a single season.

Babe's records will be broken for the most part some time down the road...again NO one will EVER break Wayne's stats!!!

Post # 8

[Sean]

And Ruth began his career as a pitcher for 5 years. Gretzky never played goalie in the NHL.

[Zone91]

Sean

Hahahaha I love the Babe but I am honest with myself Wayne's records are NOT going to EVER be beat!!!

Post # 9

[TUM301]

2 words, Babe Ruth. The other 2 words, Bobby Orr !!

[Sean]

In Gretzky's defense, I don't believe the Babe ever owned a T206 Wagner.

[billyb]

Gretzke scored most of goals when the league was watered down. There were expansions, minor league goal tenders were in the net, many defensemen were also on minor league caliber.
It was common to have 8 to 5, or 10 to 7 cames. If he played during the original six days, he would have been good, but he would not look so pretty today.
When the european invasion happened in the NHL, then the defenses and goaltending started to tighten up. You can't go by Gretzke stats, it was a time of some very weak teams. It was so bad, it wasn't even fun to watch.

[dabigyankeeman]

The fact that Ruth was a great pitcher before becoming a position player would make Gretzky have to be a great goalie for a few years before moving to another position.

Also, did Wayne ever score more goals than an entire TEAM???

[rhettyeakley]

Apples to Oranges.

In hockey Bobby Orr was great, but if we are talking about goalies most goalies in the 1960-early 70's were still employing an upright style of playing, it wasn't until later that the butterfly style (which is far more effective) was Universally employed. While it is true Gretzky played when they had slightly smaller pads than they do today it was far more similar to today's style of play than what Howe, Hull and even Bobby Orr played with. Also Bobby had health problems that limited his career. The only other hockey player that was like Gretzky was Lemieux, however his health problems are well chronicled. My vote for best hockey player ever is Gretzky with little debate.

As far as Gretzky vs Babe Ruth... People need to stop comparing goals in hockey to home runs. That comparison makes no sense. A home run, while great for your team is not the only way to score. In reality in baseball the home run is more of a novelty than it is the end all and be all of what a batter is looking to do, which is to score runs. While it is certainly the easiest way to throw a number on the scoreboard as it only requires one swing, if home runs we're all that counted we would view players like Adam Dunn as being better than some other players like Jeter that are obviously all-around better ballplayers. Did Babe Ruth have more RBI's than an entire team? Did he score more runs than an entire team? The answer is no and IMO while it is obviously problematic to compare hockey to baseball I think people are making odd comparisons.

All that being said I think Ruth in baseball is more significant than Gretzky in hockey.

[glchen]

The other thing to note is that Gretzky, from Adrian's stats, has nearly a thousand more points than the next one on the list. However, in terms of goals, the difference isn't nearly as great with "just" a ~90 goal advantage over Howe. The difference in points is from his assists which is ~700 more than the next highest in assists and nearly 900 more than the next highest in points. In hockey, multiple players can be counted as assisted on a single goal. Therefore, the comparison to baseball is very tough. It would be similar to saying that if you hit a single to advance the baserunner, who eventually scored, then you deserve an RBI for that.

[Sean1125]

I would say Michael Jordan dominated basketball at beyond the level any one has ever dominated before... Sadly he was before my time but I've watched him play and jeez... Just jeez.

[mattsey9]

Originally Posted by jp1216

I love this debate. I'm a Gretzky fan - but he did have Messier and Kurri nearly from day one.

And just as importantly, he had Semenko & McSorley!