Mantle corking bats? Article on Yahoo Sports

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by deadballfreaK

The guys been dead for 18 years and hasn't swung a bat in 45. I'm a Yankee hater, but Mick was a great player and I can't understand anyone at this late date trying to make him out as a cheater when he's not here to defend himself. Maybe Ted Williams, Joe DiMaggio, and Sibbi Sisti used corked bats. Maybe Warren Spahn threw a spitball. Maybe your grandma cheated on your grandpa. Seems like someone got a sensational story and someone will make money out of it selling the bat. If it works we'll see more of the same.

Very well said!

I just can't believe that some people are trying to besmirch Mantle now in 2013. Maybe he did use a corked bat, maybe he didn't. Maybe it helped him, maybe it didn't.

Does anybody who has seen Mantle play, be it in person, on television, or for my generation, on tape, seriously think that Mick needed help hitting the ball out of the park? If a corked bat helped him (and that is a big if to me), how much distance did he really get from it? Or how much additional bat speed did he realize from a lighter bat weight? The guy nearly hit the ball out of Yankee stadium. Let me repeat that. He nearly hit the damned ball out of Yankee Stadium. He also hit the facade of the upper deck in right field. Before I hurt my back, I was a pretty damned good hitter. I could have hit the ball three times, and the combined distance of the three fly balls wouldn't have gotten the ball up there.

I don't care who you are. The average man, hell, the best baseball players today couldn't hit it that far. Load them up with every steroid on the planet. Work them out until their biceps are the size of Minnie Minoso. Give them a brand spanking new Louisville Slugger. They're not hitting the ball up there.

While I respect the Yankee legacy, I am not a Yankee fan per se. But anybody suggesting that Mantle somehow achieved his home run prowess from a corked bat is a few playing cards short of a deck. As far as pure power goes, Mantle is top 5 to ever play the game. If he'd been healthy during his career, and didn't play with the thought of "hey, you'll be dead by 45" floating around in the back of his head, Bonds, Aaron, Mays et all would be looking at a pretty much unattainable career home run record.

I love Hank Aaron. He remains one of my favorite human beings. But he would be the first to tell you that for pure home run power, he couldn't have competed with Mantle. Hitting the ball out of the park is one thing. Hitting a moon shot that could come down in Brooklyn is an altogether different thing.

[HRBAKER]

So this should have gone unreported? This is not news?
The article I read didn't intimate that his "prowess" was a result of a corked bat but rather that he may have used one as his skills began to wane.

[the 'stache]

I don't care that it was reported. I find it laughable that two decades after Mantle died somebody is coming out and saying "he cheated". I know little about the auction house, but I have seen people call their scruples into question.

Who knows what has been done to that bat since it left his hands. Give me a Babe Ruth bat, and internet access, and I can shove a cork in his bat, too.

I just think it's absurd to insinuate that one of the greatest power hitters the game has ever seen somehow benefited from a corked bat. It's amusing to me.

[GoldenAge50s]

I grew up in the late'40's--early '50's & followed Mickey every step of the way! I IDOLIZED him as a young boy and all the way to his death in 1995. As passionate as I was about him, I don't believe I could have stated what you wrote any better, or even as well!

Thank You for your post---it expresses my feelings about what Mickey Mantle meant to me in a beautiful way!

Originally Posted by the 'stache

Very well said!

I just can't believe that some people are trying to besmirch Mantle now in 2013. Maybe he did use a corked bat, maybe he didn't. Maybe it helped him, maybe it didn't.

Does anybody who has seen Mantle play, be it in person, on television, or for my generation, on tape, seriously think that Mick needed help hitting the ball out of the park? If a corked bat helped him (and that is a big if to me), how much distance did he really get from it? Or how much additional bat speed did he realize from a lighter bat weight? The guy nearly hit the ball out of Yankee stadium. Let me repeat that. He nearly hit the damned ball out of Yankee Stadium. He also hit the facade of the upper deck in right field. Before I hurt my back, I was a pretty damned good hitter. I could have hit the ball three times, and the combined distance of the three fly balls wouldn't have gotten the ball up there.

I don't care who you are. The average man, hell, the best baseball players today couldn't hit it that far. Load them up with every steroid on the planet. Work them out until their biceps are the size of Minnie Minoso. Give them a brand spanking new Louisville Slugger. They're not hitting the ball up there.

While I respect the Yankee legacy, I am not a Yankee fan per se. But anybody suggesting that Mantle somehow achieved his home run prowess from a corked bat is a few playing cards short of a deck. As far as pure power goes, Mantle is top 5 to ever play the game. If he'd been healthy during his career, and didn't play with the thought of "hey, you'll be dead by 45" floating around in the back of his head, Bonds, Aaron, Mays et all would be looking at a pretty much unattainable career home run record.

I love Hank Aaron. He remains one of my favorite human beings. But he would be the first to tell you that for pure home run power, he couldn't have competed with Mantle. Hitting the ball out of the park is one thing. Hitting a moon shot that could come down in Brooklyn is an altogether different thing.

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by GoldenAge50s

I grew up in the late'40's--early '50's & followed Mickey every step of the way! I IDOLIZED him as a young boy and all the way to his death in 1995. As passionate as I was about him, I don't believe I could have stated what you wrote any better, or even as well!

Thank You for your post---it expresses my feelings about what Mickey Mantle meant to me in a beautiful way!

Tip of the cap to you, Fred.

[36GoudeyMan]

I grew up in NYC in the 1960s. If anyone dared whisper that Mantle was cheating (whether it was 1960 or 1969, with peak skills or diminished skills), there would have been a beat down worthy of West Side Story. Now, that doesn't mean he didn't "cheat." And it doesn't mean that it isn't newsworthy because he's dead and iconic. All it means is that someone out there is making an allegation. True, its an allegation about one of the most beloved and held-sacred players in the national pastime, but its an allegation. None of us were there when he supposedly did this; none of us worked with the seller of the bats in Minnesota, or the corker himself, apparently. Many of us were graced by the display of power Mantle could put on ("moon shots" often did not do those homers justice). But we also know he was an terrible alcoholic, used controlled substances like amphetamines, etc. Is there an un-flawed hero anywhere? The "science" over the lack of an advantage from corking a bat may be exact and reliable, but baseball is not "science." It is feel, it is psyche, it is intuition, it is hunch, it is timing, it is belief, it is streaks and and it is slumps. If Mantle wore a purple tutu under his pinstripes because it made him feel lucky, so what? Science can disprove the impact of purple tutus and we'd still be gawking over an auction of a Mantle game-used purple tutu, as if that was the talisman of Mantle's being. Did Mantle use a corked bat in 1956 when he won the Triple Crown? When he hit 54 home runs? When he hit his 500th? I'm not saying it doesn't matter, I'm saying that, of all the things players have done in the batters' box, on the pitchers' mound (Dock Ellis, anyone?) on the field, even off the field, it seems to me that the question of Mantle maybe, possibly corking his bat in 1962 (IIRC) is, at the very worst, a trifle. The auction is a curiosity, perhaps accurate in its description, perhaps, well, let's call it "fanciful." But to extrapolate from that listing that "Mantle cheated" is a leap I can't make, and won't make, and not because it was Mantle, although that helps me minimize what the auction suggests. Its because that form of "cheating" doesn't make enough of an impact, often enough, consistently enough, to a hitter of Mantle's caliber, consistency and power, in any event.

[CardTarget]

If you try to cheat but 45 years later physics proves that your "cheating" actually hurt you, are you still a cheater?

I'm only 35, so Mantle was retired 15+ years by the time I was truly watching baseball, but it seems to me that things like corking, spitballs, etc were a lot more accepted before 1980.

Was anyone actually penalized in a game before 1980 for "cheating"? We can all remember Phil Neikro, George Brett, Sosa, etc... but before cameras recorded every second of every game perhaps it was just part of the game.

[sycks22]

Mantle was already seeing triple by the time he was up to bat anyways with all the booze in his system. I don't think the corking would've helped him.

[DeanH3]

[QUOTE=CardTarget;1127375]If you try to cheat but 45 years later physics proves that your "cheating" actually hurt you, are you still a cheater?

I would still say yes because the intention was to get an advantage whether it helped or not. I'm not accusing Mantle of cheating. That is something that can never be proven. But I do believe players of every generation did something to get an advantage over the competition. Some helped and other probably not as much as intended.

[HRBAKER]

Ill winds blow when people speculate that something may be amiss with their man-gods. Could you really not see an aging megastar not trying to get a late in career boost by corking? Certainly just as plausible as thinking someone would take a Mantle gamer and cork it themselves. All that really matters is if the corker thought it would help, most players weren't exactly schooled in physics!

[HOF Auto Rookies]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

But anybody suggesting that Mantle somehow achieved his home run prowess from a corked bat is a few playing cards short of a deck.

I don't think anyone's saying that at all, no one.

[Frozen in Time]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

Very well said!

I just can't believe that some people are trying to besmirch Mantle now in 2013. Maybe he did use a corked bat, maybe he didn't. Maybe it helped him, maybe it didn't.

Does anybody who has seen Mantle play, be it in person, on television, or for my generation, on tape, seriously think that Mick needed help hitting the ball out of the park? If a corked bat helped him (and that is a big if to me), how much distance did he really get from it? Or how much additional bat speed did he realize from a lighter bat weight? The guy nearly hit the ball out of Yankee stadium. Let me repeat that. He nearly hit the damned ball out of Yankee Stadium. He also hit the facade of the upper deck in right field. Before I hurt my back, I was a pretty damned good hitter. I could have hit the ball three times, and the combined distance of the three fly balls wouldn't have gotten the ball up there.

I don't care who you are. The average man, hell, the best baseball players today couldn't hit it that far. Load them up with every steroid on the planet. Work them out until their biceps are the size of Minnie Minoso. Give them a brand spanking new Louisville Slugger. They're not hitting the ball up there.

While I respect the Yankee legacy, I am not a Yankee fan per se. But anybody suggesting that Mantle somehow achieved his home run prowess from a corked bat is a few playing cards short of a deck. As far as pure power goes, Mantle is top 5 to ever play the game. If he'd been healthy during his career, and didn't play with the thought of "hey, you'll be dead by 45" floating around in the back of his head, Bonds, Aaron, Mays et all would be looking at a pretty much unattainable career home run record.

I love Hank Aaron. He remains one of my favorite human beings. But he would be the first to tell you that for pure home run power, he couldn't have competed with Mantle. Hitting the ball out of the park is one thing. Hitting a moon shot that could come down in Brooklyn is an altogether different thing.

Bill,

Very well said!! Even during the Mick's rookie pre-season in '51 when he only weighed between 165-175 lbs, he was crushing the ball from both sides of the plate with a frequency and distance that no one had ever seen before. For example, in the Yankees vs USC game, Mickey hit 2 tape measure HRs (one estimated to travel between 645-660 ft the other well over 500 ft) and also had a triple, single and 7 RBIs and he left the California tour batting .432. I don't believe that the combination of his natural power from both sides of the plate with his world class speed, at least as a rookie (2.9 sec to first from the left-side and 3.1 sec from the right-side) has ever been seen before or since.

Anyone who saw Mickey in his prime would place him as one of the 10 best players (non-pitchers) of all time. His power numbers elevate that to the top 4 or 5. And remember, he essentially played his entire career with one crippling injury after another.

Any assertion that these natural abilities and pure talent were enhanced by corking bats is absurd. As a player, Mantle was basically very shy and self-effacing. He never talked about himself over the team and ran out HRs with his head down.

Did he ever use a corked bat during his prime - I would suggest absolutely not. Is there any evidence that he did - no. Might he have tried a corked bat in his later years when many of his physical advantages had waned - maybe.
But my guess is that he would have only used these in batting practice, as many players did at the time. To date, I have not seen any evidence that the auction bat was in Mickey's hands during a regular season game. Moreover, the few and light ball marks on this bat suggest it was not used regularly as most documented Mantle gamers are covered with deep seam imprints all over the barrel. In addition, the Mick broke a huge number of bats during his career and I have never heard of one being found to be corked.

So what is the truth? I do not know from the analysis if there are any indications of when this bat was corked. Considering the current state of the Hobby it would not surprise me if this was done after Mantle's playing days for profit. What if future research indicates that the Mick did in fact use this bat in a regularly scheduled game or games. So far there is absolutely no evidence that this is the case and even if it were found to be true I do not believe it would tarnish in any way the remarkable career that Mickey had nor what he meant to all of us growing up.

Craig

[itjclarke]

Originally Posted by Frozen in Time

... with his world class speed, at least as a rookie (2.9 sec to first from the left-side and 3.1 sec from the right-side) has ever been seen before or since.

Good points all around, except I can not believe those times are accurate. I know they're referenced online if you Google it, but I highly doubt that even Usain Bolt could approach a 2.9 sec- 30 yard dash (even with the 2-3 foot head start from the left side).

When electronically timed, the fastest NFL and/or track stars run around a 4.2 sec 40 yd dash. There may even be some that have run a 40 in the high 4.1's... but even those guys' first 20 yards are substantially slower than their second 20 yds. The thought that someone could average under 1 second per 10 yards for a 30 yard dash is unheard of, if no one on earth can average under a second per 10 yds for a 40.

Handheld times are the stuff legends are made of. That said, the Mick is the stuff of legend and legends in the game of baseball are a beautiful thing.. cork or no cork.

[Frozen in Time]

Originally Posted by itjclarke

Good points all around, except I can not believe those times are accurate. I know they're referenced online if you Google it, but I highly doubt that even Usain Bolt could approach a 2.9 sec- 30 yard dash (even with the 2-3 foot head start from the left side).

When electronically timed, the fastest NFL and/or track stars run around a 4.2 sec 40 yd dash. There may even be some that have run a 40 in the high 4.1's... but even those guys' first 20 yards are substantially slower than their second 20 yds. The thought that someone could average under 1 second per 10 yards for a 30 yard dash is unheard of, if no one on earth can average under a second per 10 yds for a 40.

Handheld times are the stuff legends are made of. That said, the Mick is the stuff of legend and legends in the game of baseball are a beautiful thing.. cork or no cork.

I fully agree that stop watches vs electronic timing explains a great deal of the discrepancies you point out. In addition, the 2.9 sec from the left-side of the plate was probably measured during a drag bunt - yet another tool Mickey had in his arsenal. But, as you state and infer so nicely in your post, the absolute numbers don't mean that much. The combination of his remarkable power from both sides of the plate and sprinters speed (he was considered by most to be the fastest player in the majors, at least before the injuries robbed him of that) are the stuff of legends. And Mickey will always be a legend to those of us who grew wanting to be exactly like him and the generations of fans who only read or viewed his many accomplishments after he finished playing.... cork or no cork!!!

[Jlighter]

Item removed.

http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/...l_defense.html