Babe Ruth?

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by shelly

Scott, Chris feels that bad Gudel is from the same person that did the Ruth ticket. You can make up your own mind. He was trying to show the open a on the babe and the open a on the other.

Sure, but he used a horrible example. If one autograph is a horrible forgery (Gaedel) and the other is much better (Ruth), then you have to think the open 'a' similarity was a coincidence. Chris might think it's the same person, but I think he's incorrect.

[shelly]

I will wait until Chris is able to speak for himself.

[thetruthisoutthere]

Originally Posted by shelly

I will wait until Chris is able to speak for himself.

Thank you, Shelly.

The Babe Ruth signed ticket and the Eddie Gaedel signed photo were penned by the same person. 100%.

[GrayGhost]

Originally Posted by thetruthisoutthere

Thank you, Shelly.

The Babe Ruth signed ticket and the Eddie Gaedel signed photo were penned by the same person. 100%.

Then at least one of them is a forgery

[David Atkatz]

This is a page from the N.Y. Herald sportswriter Rud Rennie's personal scrapbook. The autographs were obtained by him in-person.
Note the "a" in Babe. It is open.

[shelly]

Chris, nice having you back. I think one thing you did not mention is that there is always a chance of a Babe Ruth open a. I am sure that anyone can find one. What you did not tell them that out of over four hundred documents that have been certed by more than one person or was a legal document contract, notary and checks. the percentage was 10 percent open a's to closed.
I know that when I posted the open a I was expecting people to do just that show the open a. I wished they took as much time to show all the ones that are closed.
Of all the certed open a's ninety percent have been authenticated by Jsa or psa what a surprise. I think before everything is said and done a few more people might come to the dark side.

Just to add something becaus of Chris being my friend. This site is made up of a lot of good people and I want to thank those that showed there is a time to be feisty and time to be careing .Death is a terrible thing and except for one or two people you showed Chris a lot of love both publicly and private. I can tell you that it gave both Chris and his girlfriend a great deal of comfort knowing people really cared.

[David Atkatz]

The point, Shelly, is simple. The gobbledygook you posted notwithstanding, an open "a" does not disqualify a Ruth signature.

[thetruthisoutthere]

Last night was the viewing (over 1000 people showed up) and today is the funeral.

Please say a prayer for my girlfriend to get through this day.

Thank you for your kindness.

[sports-rings]

Chris,

so sorry to learn of your girlfriend's loss. My thoughts and prayers are with you and her.

[GrayGhost]

Originally Posted by thetruthisoutthere

Last night was the viewing (over 1000 people showed up) and today is the funeral.

Please say a prayer for my girlfriend to get through this day.

Thank you for your kindness.

May God give you and your Girlfriend the inner strength to endure in this time of sorrow. Know that there is no pain anymore for him, just peace.

[jgmp123]

Hauls of Shame Update:

UPDATE (May 1): Experts Uncover More Ruth Fakes in Heritage and REA Auctions; Feds Building Cases Against PSA, Joe Orlando, Steve Grad, Jimmy Spence and Auctioneers

REA and Rob Lifson just withdrew ten autographed lots that Haulsofshame.com and other experts called out as fakes and the auctioneer’s disingenuous explanation that the withdrawal was at the request of its consignor is being widely ridiculed by collectors and dealers throughout the hobby. REA, however, has not removed the alleged photo signed by Babe Ruth to Gary Cooper despite expert Ron Keurajian calling it a fake and Gary Cooper’s own daughter confirming that the photo was never in the possession of her family or the “Cooper Collection” the family archive she curates. Sources indicate that Lifson does not believe that Cooper’s daughter Marie Cooper-Janis confirmed this information for Haulsofshame.com.

http://haulsofshame.com/blog/?p=19877#more-19877

[Frozen in Time]

Originally Posted by jgmp123

Hauls of Shame Update:

UPDATE (May 1): Experts Uncover More Ruth Fakes in Heritage and REA Auctions; Feds Building Cases Against PSA, Joe Orlando, Steve Grad, Jimmy Spence and Auctioneers

REA and Rob Lifson just withdrew ten autographed lots that Haulsofshame.com and other experts called out as fakes and the auctioneer’s disingenuous explanation that the withdrawal was at the request of its consignor is being widely ridiculed by collectors and dealers throughout the hobby. REA, however, has not removed the alleged photo signed by Babe Ruth to Gary Cooper despite expert Ron Keurajian calling it a fake and Gary Cooper’s own daughter confirming that the photo was never in the possession of her family or the “Cooper Collection” the family archive she curates. Sources indicate that Lifson does not believe that Cooper’s daughter Marie Cooper-Janis confirmed this information for Haulsofshame.com.

http://haulsofshame.com/blog/?p=19877#more-19877

So let's assume for the purpose of an intellectual exercise (and I realize its a huge, huge assumption) that PSA/DNA, Spence, REA and Heritage are the subjects of an intense FBI investigation, found guilty of fraud or a similar charge and forced to close up shop. What do you guys think the impact of such a scenario would be on the Hobby (cards, autographs and memorabilia).

Would graded cards and certain graded autographs lose their value? Be difficult to sell? Would overall interest and participation in the Hobby decrease? And if such a scenario came to fruition, what alternative directions for the Hobby might we see?

[Big Dave]

If they are shut down, I believe the items authenticated would fall in the same category as GAI certified items, except there would be more repercussions due to the amounts of money spent on these items.

[jgmp123]

Craig,

Although I would love to see action taken, I would assume that nothing will happen. I was simply relaying a message from Hauls since some here may not be aware of the site.

If they can't take down the clowns at Coaches Corner, then why PSA, JSA, REA, etc....Much more money changing hands?? Who knows...

[Runscott]

Craig, that's almost too huge a scenario to get my brain around, but I believe the reason these TPA's have been successful is not because they are authenticating real autographs (and thus rendering forgeries valueless), but rather because they have allowed more product into the hobby, the result being that more people who want 'Ruth' (and other) autographs can buy them. The TPA's give us more autographs, cheaper autographs, and a false sense of security.

The market for autographs of dead people is getting bigger, but the dead people are no longer signing anything. Because of this, I believe that if the TPA's go away, more TPA's will arise.

[Runscott]

...and a sort of related comment: this forum allows us to protect ourselves, but I don't think it usually does much for the rest of the autograph collectors out there. If it did, we'd be hearing back from guys who win items that we have deemed to be forgeries. Instead, we are only hearing whining from consignors who don't want us questioning them.

A forum member's getting REA to force the consignor of the recent pile of Ruth pictures into a corner, and withdraw them, is a big step forward for the hobby. I hope we see more of that - then we really will be influencing collectors who are outside this board.

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by Frozen in Time

So let's assume for the purpose of an intellectual exercise (and I realize its a huge, huge assumption) that PSA/DNA, Spence, REA and Heritage are the subjects of an intense FBI investigation, found guilty of fraud or a similar charge and forced to close up shop. What do you guys think the impact of such a scenario would be on the Hobby (cards, autographs and memorabilia).

Would graded cards and certain graded autographs lose their value? Be difficult to sell? Would overall interest and participation in the Hobby decrease? And if such a scenario came to fruition, what alternative directions for the Hobby might we see?

I guess we would have to go back to the good old days (which lasted many, many years before the TPA's. People would have to buy from knowledgeable and trustworthy dealers). And as far as I know the type of dealer I am talking about has always helped out his customers when they ask a question about the authenticity of other items.

[T206Collector]

This is evidently where the hobby goes when it wants to eat itself.

Third party grading is where all hobbies will be in the future, particularly ones that rely so heavily on the internet for distribution. The elimination of the big ones would only cause more to sprout up to take their place.

If and when you or your heirs go to the market to sell your autographs, you/they had better be prepared to have them authenticated by whoever or whatever is the market leader at the time for authenticating autographs.

During any period of time when there is no accepted market leader for authenticating autographs, you can expect your items to diminish -- perhaps drastically -- in value.

What I'd like to see more of from the people who challenge the established market leaders are videos of people forging autographs -- outside of the context of an in-show Sal Bando-esque signing -- and then having Spence, or DNA, or SGC, authenticating those autographs.

Frankly, I'll spend thousands of dollars on autographed T206 cards that I don't have. Won't someone please forge one, get it certified by Spence, DNA or SGC, and then sell it to me? I won't tell! Why can't I find any of these on the market over the past two years? Prices have been skyrocketing!!

[Forever Young]

Originally Posted by T206Collector

This is evidently where the hobby goes when it wants to eat itself.

Third party grading is where all hobbies will be in the future, particularly ones that rely so heavily on the internet for distribution. The elimination of the big ones would only cause more to sprout up to take their place.

If and when you or your heirs go to the market to sell your autographs, you/they had better be prepared to have them authenticated by whoever or whatever is the market leader at the time for authenticating autographs.

During any period of time when there is no accepted market leader for authenticating autographs, you can expect your items to diminish -- perhaps drastically -- in value.

What I'd like to see more of from the people who challenge the established market leaders are videos of people forging autographs -- outside of the context of an in-show Sal Bando-esque signing -- and then having Spence, or DNA, or SGC, authenticating those autographs.

Frankly, I'll spend thousands of dollars on autographed T206 cards that I don't have. Won't someone please forge one, get it certified by Spence, DNA or SGC, and then sell it to me? I won't tell! Why can't I find any of these on the market over the past two years? Prices have been skyrocketing!!

sure does make a guy wonder what the agendas are of some of the 3rd party(leaders)haters out there...

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by T206Collector

This is evidently where the hobby goes when it wants to eat itself.

Third party grading is where all hobbies will be in the future, particularly ones that rely so heavily on the internet for distribution. The elimination of the big ones would only cause more to sprout up to take their place.

If and when you or your heirs go to the market to sell your autographs, you/they had better be prepared to have them authenticated by whoever or whatever is the market leader at the time for authenticating autographs.

During any period of time when there is no accepted market leader for authenticating autographs, you can expect your items to diminish -- perhaps drastically -- in value.

What I'd like to see more of from the people who challenge the established market leaders are videos of people forging autographs -- outside of the context of an in-show Sal Bando-esque signing -- and then having Spence, or DNA, or SGC, authenticating those autographs.

Frankly, I'll spend thousands of dollars on autographed T206 cards that I don't have. Won't someone please forge one, get it certified by Spence, DNA or SGC, and then sell it to me? I won't tell! Why can't I find any of these on the market over the past two years? Prices have been skyrocketing!!

No, the hobby is eating itself OUTSIDE of this forum. This is where we talk about things so that we can avoid becoming food. Other than a few personal feuds, most of the really bad stuff occurs when one of the pieces of outside 'food' joins in and insists that we get eaten as well.

Obviously I agree with your assessment, since we said many of the same things, but I think you already know why you aren't finding T206 cards with forged autographs. I wish you luck locating more of them - it's a great collecting niche and you seem to be enjoying it a lot.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by Forever Young

makes you wonder what the agendas are of some of the 3rd party(leaders)haters out there...

Pretty easy - clean it up.

[Forever Young]

Originally Posted by T206Collector

This is evidently where the hobby goes when it wants to eat itself.

Third party grading is where all hobbies will be in the future, particularly ones that rely so heavily on the internet for distribution. The elimination of the big ones would only cause more to sprout up to take their place.

If and when you or your heirs go to the market to sell your autographs, you/they had better be prepared to have them authenticated by whoever or whatever is the market leader at the time for authenticating autographs.

During any period of time when there is no accepted market leader for authenticating autographs, you can expect your items to diminish -- perhaps drastically -- in value.

What I'd like to see more of from the people who challenge the established market leaders are videos of people forging autographs -- outside of the context of an in-show Sal Bando-esque signing -- and then having Spence, or DNA, or SGC, authenticating those autographs.

Frankly, I'll spend thousands of dollars on autographed T206 cards that I don't have. Won't someone please forge one, get it certified by Spence, DNA or SGC, and then sell it to me? I won't tell! Why can't I find any of these on the market over the past two years? Prices have been skyrocketing!!

Originally Posted by Runscott

Pretty easy - clean it up.

yeah... In never never land

[shelly]

If the big boys go down I really dont believe that there be anyone with enough juice to take there places. It will all go back to the way it was before. Prices will go way down. Auction houses wont be able to get 20 percent buyers fees. The world will be a perfect place to live.
PS. We can then have the M and M boys from Heritage do all work.

[Deertick]

Originally Posted by shelly

If the big boys go down I really dont believe that there be anyone with enough juice to take there places. It will all go back to the way it was before. Prices will go way down. Auction houses wont be able to get 20 percent buyers fees. The world will be a perfect place to live.
PS. We can then have the M and M boys from Heritage do all work.

I think Morales, CSC, etal. have authenticated 100 times the amount the big three have. Maybe they can fill the void?
Call it HSA (Horse Shit Authenticatters)?

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by Deertick

I think Morales, CSC, etal. have authenticated 100 times the amount the big three have. Maybe they can fill the void?
Call it HSA (Horse Shit Authenticatters)?

I think they would evolve into the same situation - PSA and JSA are in competition, which drives prices down, and unless you have a single trusted TPA that collectors are willing to pay exorbitant sums to because they offer a better product, you will have to keep dealing with this:

When prices get driven down low enough by competition, you have to cut back on service; i.e- due diligence or close examination. If you want TPA's, you have to take shoddy service or embarrass them so badly with their mistakes that they change the way they do business. I will not state as others have, that they are dishonest - I think their motivation is simply 'staying in business'.

[shelly]

Originally Posted by Deertick

I think Morales, CSC, etal. have authenticated 100 times the amount the big three have. Maybe they can fill the void?
Call it HSA (Horse Shit Authenticatters)?

At least we know there terrible. Its the others that are getting away with out being questioned.

[travrosty]

Originally Posted by Runscott

I think they would evolve into the same situation - PSA and JSA are in competition, which drives prices down, and unless you have a single trusted TPA that collectors are willing to pay exorbitant sums to because they offer a better product, you will have to keep dealing with this:

When prices get driven down low enough by competition, you have to cut back on service; i.e- due diligence or close examination. If you want TPA's, you have to take shoddy service or embarrass them so badly with their mistakes that they change the way they do business. I will not state as others have, that they are dishonest - I think their motivation is simply 'staying in business'.

now we have sgc CARD GRADING company receiving, sorting, tagging, data entering, AUTHENTICATING, slabbing, and boxing up your signature for 8-10 dollars per autograph. SWEEEEEET! and they wont tell you who their authenticators are! perfect!!!

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by travrosty

now we have sgc CARD GRADING company receiving, sorting, tagging, data entering, AUTHENTICATING, slabbing, and boxing up your signature for 8-10 dollars per autograph. SWEEEEEET! and they wont tell you who their authenticators are! perfect!!!

I think SGC is making a big mistake, but given that PSA got away with it, who can blame them?

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by Runscott

I think their motivation is simply 'staying in business'.

And staying in business means keeping (big) customers happy.

[thetruthisoutthere]

Originally Posted by shelly

I will wait until Chris is able to speak for himself.

Thank you again, Shelly.

I just wanted to expand a little bit on my previous response.

Both of those sigs (Ruth & Gaedel) were penned by the same person as I have stated before.

Second, it has lot more to do than just the "a" in both sigs. And no, I'm not going to expand on that.

As for that Babe Ruth signed ticket, it's not even a well-executed forgery. I find it to be a very awkardly-penned forgery.

[thetruthisoutthere]

I als wanted to write that I have a much different perspective on life and priorities.

A few times here on Net54, I have posted comments that I now regret because I am a very emotional person. I apologize for some of those comments.

I will no longer "take the bait" from the few members (two) that light the fuse of my emotional responses.

That doesn't mean I'm not going to "be myself." I'm not going to change the way I do things. I have worked very hard during the last eight years training my eye for autographs. I also work very hard doing my research and the leg work necessary to find the information I need. Some I can share and some I cannot. It's not a personal thing. Some I share with my close friends and some I don't share with anyone.

I know other collectors who possess information that I don't have. I don't bug them to share that information with me because I know exactly why they can't share it and I respect that.

I also have many sources that share information with me. They trust me with that information and I have never broken a confidence and I never will. As a matter of fact, some of my sources are people that some of you would assume are at odds with me. And I share some of my information with those same people.

So if you want to make fun of the way I do things, or my name (thetruthisoutthere), or anything about me, I will no longer let it bother me.

To quote "I never did mind about the little things."

I will continue to be a member on Net54, as there are some wonderful and nice people here who simply want to enjoy the hobby, as I do. But at the same time, I will continue to do what I do.

Thank you.

[Leon]

Chris- I am still a big supporter of yours. I do wish the ticket thread would have had enough meat to satisfy others but I understand. Keep up the good fight. Even if you lose 1-2, you have won exponentially more of them.

Also, I hate it when I see people saying they are going to leave the forum (Jim Stinson recently). It is what it is though and this open of a board isn't for everyone. One thing that no one can say is that there are a lot of anonymous postings and people not standing behind what they say. I have put names under members id's almost daily. One of my biggest pet peeves is forums that allow anonymity of people bashing others. People say things they wouldn't say if they had to stand behind it. As you know Chris, some of the biggest names in the autograph industry are members here even if they don't post. I think what you guys do in helping expose issues does help your hobby.

[travrosty]

its all about chris and he provides no insight into these autographs. how did he help expose issues regarding the babe ruth autograph ticket, and how did it help the hobby? leon?

i still think it maybe fake it may not be, but no analyzation of the autograph was proffered at all. totally worthless threads if you look at it in its totality, nothing got accomplished. i will wait patiently for the screenshots that were promised.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by travrosty

its all about chris and he provides no insight into these autographs. how did he help expose issues regarding the babe ruth autograph ticket, and how did it help the hobby? leon?

i still think it maybe fake it may not be, but no analyzation of the autograph was proffered at all. totally worthless threads if you look at it in its totality, nothing got accomplished. i will wait patiently for the screenshots that were promised.

Did I say the Ruth ticket thread was great? Actually, I said if Chris (hi Chris) loses 1-2 (maybe the ticket thread, maybe not) he is still doing more than almost anyone in the hobby to try to help.

I always say if you aren't making any mistakes you aren't doing enough!! I also wish more information on the Ruth ticket would have come out....and since it didn't, I am not sure the thread was good or not. But even if it isn't, there is no way I can discount the other countless positive things Chris is doing. If everyone tried that much, and exposed a ton of bad stuff for every mistake they made, I would still say they were successful. That's just my take on it. I am sure some won't agree.

[David Atkatz]

Oh, this thread accomplished a thing or two. I'm sure it scared off some bidders, and cost an innocent consignor some money.

I guess that from now on baseless accusations are OK--we'll just call them "losses," while we call pointing out Coach's Corner forgeries "wins."

[Leon]

Originally Posted by David Atkatz

Oh, this thread accomplished a thing or two. I'm sure it scared off some bidders, and cost an innocent consignor some money.

I guess that from now on baseless accusations are OK--we'll just call them "losses," while we call pointing out Coach's Corner forgeries "wins."

Maybe and maybe not. As long as a member puts their name out here they can pretty much say what they want to. It's almost too open of a forum.

[7nohitter]

It would be a crime if Jim Stinson stopped posting...

[Big Dave]

.....and in the end, after over 500+ posts.....over 25000+ views....countless arguments, accusations, claims, and whatnot.....nothing was proven......nothing......just a whole lot of noise.

[jgmp123]

Originally Posted by 7nohitter

It would be a crime if Jim Stinson stopped posting...

+1...Jim being gone is a crime

[jgmp123]

Originally Posted by Big Dave

.....and in the end, after over 500+ posts.....over 25000+ views....countless arguments, accusations, claims, and whatnot.....nothing was proven......nothing......just a whole lot of noise.

and we lost Jim....

[7nohitter]

Originally Posted by jgmp123

and we lost Jim....

Did Jim leave the site?

[shelly]

Yes, and it is a shame. Read his last few post and I am sure you will figure it out.

[thecatspajamas]

Originally Posted by shelly

Yes, and it is a shame.

+1

Catching the latest of Jim's tales of adventures in autograph collecting or reading one of his humorous or profound (or both) interjections into an otherwise drama-laden thread was one of the few things that kept me coming to the autograph side of the boards.

[39special]

Jim will be missed!!

[shelly]

Not only that. If you read what he was saying it would give you a great clue to what he thought of an item. That knowledge is now lost to the people on this site.

[Wymers Auction]

Originally Posted by 7nohitter

It would be a crime if Jim Stinson stopped posting...

Agreed

[Rich Klein]

And now I'm standing on the corner, all the world's gone home
Nobody's changed, nobody's been saved
And I'm feeling cold and alone
I guess I'm lucky, I smile a lot
But sometimes I wish for more than I've got

[shelly]

Look at the reason he left. It is not on this thread it on the Gary Cooper thread. You can then maybe figure out why. I have been told I can not post emails to me so I wont. If you cant figure it out them I cant help.

[Sean1125]

I remember viewing this thread on page three... Now 47.... I have some reading to do!

I lied...55... Oh boy

[Deertick]

Originally Posted by shelly

Look at the reason he left. It is not on this thread it on the Gary Cooper thread. You can then maybe figure out why. I have been told I can not post emails to me so I wont. If you cant figure it out them I cant help.

I can't figure it out. No one even replied to him. It appears that he was frustrated that people were trying to authenticate the signature? Did someone edit out what set him off?