Babe Ruth?

[Frozen in Time]

Originally Posted by jgmp123

Hauls of Shame Update:

UPDATE (May 1): Experts Uncover More Ruth Fakes in Heritage and REA Auctions; Feds Building Cases Against PSA, Joe Orlando, Steve Grad, Jimmy Spence and Auctioneers

REA and Rob Lifson just withdrew ten autographed lots that Haulsofshame.com and other experts called out as fakes and the auctioneer’s disingenuous explanation that the withdrawal was at the request of its consignor is being widely ridiculed by collectors and dealers throughout the hobby. REA, however, has not removed the alleged photo signed by Babe Ruth to Gary Cooper despite expert Ron Keurajian calling it a fake and Gary Cooper’s own daughter confirming that the photo was never in the possession of her family or the “Cooper Collection” the family archive she curates. Sources indicate that Lifson does not believe that Cooper’s daughter Marie Cooper-Janis confirmed this information for Haulsofshame.com.

http://haulsofshame.com/blog/?p=19877#more-19877

So let's assume for the purpose of an intellectual exercise (and I realize its a huge, huge assumption) that PSA/DNA, Spence, REA and Heritage are the subjects of an intense FBI investigation, found guilty of fraud or a similar charge and forced to close up shop. What do you guys think the impact of such a scenario would be on the Hobby (cards, autographs and memorabilia).

Would graded cards and certain graded autographs lose their value? Be difficult to sell? Would overall interest and participation in the Hobby decrease? And if such a scenario came to fruition, what alternative directions for the Hobby might we see?

[Big Dave]

If they are shut down, I believe the items authenticated would fall in the same category as GAI certified items, except there would be more repercussions due to the amounts of money spent on these items.

[jgmp123]

Craig,

Although I would love to see action taken, I would assume that nothing will happen. I was simply relaying a message from Hauls since some here may not be aware of the site.

If they can't take down the clowns at Coaches Corner, then why PSA, JSA, REA, etc....Much more money changing hands?? Who knows...

[Runscott]

Craig, that's almost too huge a scenario to get my brain around, but I believe the reason these TPA's have been successful is not because they are authenticating real autographs (and thus rendering forgeries valueless), but rather because they have allowed more product into the hobby, the result being that more people who want 'Ruth' (and other) autographs can buy them. The TPA's give us more autographs, cheaper autographs, and a false sense of security.

The market for autographs of dead people is getting bigger, but the dead people are no longer signing anything. Because of this, I believe that if the TPA's go away, more TPA's will arise.

[Runscott]

...and a sort of related comment: this forum allows us to protect ourselves, but I don't think it usually does much for the rest of the autograph collectors out there. If it did, we'd be hearing back from guys who win items that we have deemed to be forgeries. Instead, we are only hearing whining from consignors who don't want us questioning them.

A forum member's getting REA to force the consignor of the recent pile of Ruth pictures into a corner, and withdraw them, is a big step forward for the hobby. I hope we see more of that - then we really will be influencing collectors who are outside this board.

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by Frozen in Time

So let's assume for the purpose of an intellectual exercise (and I realize its a huge, huge assumption) that PSA/DNA, Spence, REA and Heritage are the subjects of an intense FBI investigation, found guilty of fraud or a similar charge and forced to close up shop. What do you guys think the impact of such a scenario would be on the Hobby (cards, autographs and memorabilia).

Would graded cards and certain graded autographs lose their value? Be difficult to sell? Would overall interest and participation in the Hobby decrease? And if such a scenario came to fruition, what alternative directions for the Hobby might we see?

I guess we would have to go back to the good old days (which lasted many, many years before the TPA's. People would have to buy from knowledgeable and trustworthy dealers). And as far as I know the type of dealer I am talking about has always helped out his customers when they ask a question about the authenticity of other items.

[T206Collector]

This is evidently where the hobby goes when it wants to eat itself.

Third party grading is where all hobbies will be in the future, particularly ones that rely so heavily on the internet for distribution. The elimination of the big ones would only cause more to sprout up to take their place.

If and when you or your heirs go to the market to sell your autographs, you/they had better be prepared to have them authenticated by whoever or whatever is the market leader at the time for authenticating autographs.

During any period of time when there is no accepted market leader for authenticating autographs, you can expect your items to diminish -- perhaps drastically -- in value.

What I'd like to see more of from the people who challenge the established market leaders are videos of people forging autographs -- outside of the context of an in-show Sal Bando-esque signing -- and then having Spence, or DNA, or SGC, authenticating those autographs.

Frankly, I'll spend thousands of dollars on autographed T206 cards that I don't have. Won't someone please forge one, get it certified by Spence, DNA or SGC, and then sell it to me? I won't tell! Why can't I find any of these on the market over the past two years? Prices have been skyrocketing!!

[Forever Young]

Originally Posted by T206Collector

This is evidently where the hobby goes when it wants to eat itself.

Third party grading is where all hobbies will be in the future, particularly ones that rely so heavily on the internet for distribution. The elimination of the big ones would only cause more to sprout up to take their place.

If and when you or your heirs go to the market to sell your autographs, you/they had better be prepared to have them authenticated by whoever or whatever is the market leader at the time for authenticating autographs.

During any period of time when there is no accepted market leader for authenticating autographs, you can expect your items to diminish -- perhaps drastically -- in value.

What I'd like to see more of from the people who challenge the established market leaders are videos of people forging autographs -- outside of the context of an in-show Sal Bando-esque signing -- and then having Spence, or DNA, or SGC, authenticating those autographs.

Frankly, I'll spend thousands of dollars on autographed T206 cards that I don't have. Won't someone please forge one, get it certified by Spence, DNA or SGC, and then sell it to me? I won't tell! Why can't I find any of these on the market over the past two years? Prices have been skyrocketing!!

sure does make a guy wonder what the agendas are of some of the 3rd party(leaders)haters out there...

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by Forever Young

makes you wonder what the agendas are of some of the 3rd party(leaders)haters out there...

Pretty easy - clean it up.

[Forever Young]

Originally Posted by T206Collector

This is evidently where the hobby goes when it wants to eat itself.

Third party grading is where all hobbies will be in the future, particularly ones that rely so heavily on the internet for distribution. The elimination of the big ones would only cause more to sprout up to take their place.

If and when you or your heirs go to the market to sell your autographs, you/they had better be prepared to have them authenticated by whoever or whatever is the market leader at the time for authenticating autographs.

During any period of time when there is no accepted market leader for authenticating autographs, you can expect your items to diminish -- perhaps drastically -- in value.

What I'd like to see more of from the people who challenge the established market leaders are videos of people forging autographs -- outside of the context of an in-show Sal Bando-esque signing -- and then having Spence, or DNA, or SGC, authenticating those autographs.

Frankly, I'll spend thousands of dollars on autographed T206 cards that I don't have. Won't someone please forge one, get it certified by Spence, DNA or SGC, and then sell it to me? I won't tell! Why can't I find any of these on the market over the past two years? Prices have been skyrocketing!!

Originally Posted by Runscott

Pretty easy - clean it up.

yeah... In never never land

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by T206Collector

This is evidently where the hobby goes when it wants to eat itself.

Third party grading is where all hobbies will be in the future, particularly ones that rely so heavily on the internet for distribution. The elimination of the big ones would only cause more to sprout up to take their place.

If and when you or your heirs go to the market to sell your autographs, you/they had better be prepared to have them authenticated by whoever or whatever is the market leader at the time for authenticating autographs.

During any period of time when there is no accepted market leader for authenticating autographs, you can expect your items to diminish -- perhaps drastically -- in value.

What I'd like to see more of from the people who challenge the established market leaders are videos of people forging autographs -- outside of the context of an in-show Sal Bando-esque signing -- and then having Spence, or DNA, or SGC, authenticating those autographs.

Frankly, I'll spend thousands of dollars on autographed T206 cards that I don't have. Won't someone please forge one, get it certified by Spence, DNA or SGC, and then sell it to me? I won't tell! Why can't I find any of these on the market over the past two years? Prices have been skyrocketing!!

No, the hobby is eating itself OUTSIDE of this forum. This is where we talk about things so that we can avoid becoming food. Other than a few personal feuds, most of the really bad stuff occurs when one of the pieces of outside 'food' joins in and insists that we get eaten as well.

Obviously I agree with your assessment, since we said many of the same things, but I think you already know why you aren't finding T206 cards with forged autographs. I wish you luck locating more of them - it's a great collecting niche and you seem to be enjoying it a lot.

[shelly]

If the big boys go down I really dont believe that there be anyone with enough juice to take there places. It will all go back to the way it was before. Prices will go way down. Auction houses wont be able to get 20 percent buyers fees. The world will be a perfect place to live.
PS. We can then have the M and M boys from Heritage do all work.

[Deertick]

Originally Posted by shelly

If the big boys go down I really dont believe that there be anyone with enough juice to take there places. It will all go back to the way it was before. Prices will go way down. Auction houses wont be able to get 20 percent buyers fees. The world will be a perfect place to live.
PS. We can then have the M and M boys from Heritage do all work.

I think Morales, CSC, etal. have authenticated 100 times the amount the big three have. Maybe they can fill the void?
Call it HSA (Horse Shit Authenticatters)?

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by Deertick

I think Morales, CSC, etal. have authenticated 100 times the amount the big three have. Maybe they can fill the void?
Call it HSA (Horse Shit Authenticatters)?

I think they would evolve into the same situation - PSA and JSA are in competition, which drives prices down, and unless you have a single trusted TPA that collectors are willing to pay exorbitant sums to because they offer a better product, you will have to keep dealing with this:

When prices get driven down low enough by competition, you have to cut back on service; i.e- due diligence or close examination. If you want TPA's, you have to take shoddy service or embarrass them so badly with their mistakes that they change the way they do business. I will not state as others have, that they are dishonest - I think their motivation is simply 'staying in business'.

[travrosty]

Originally Posted by Runscott

I think they would evolve into the same situation - PSA and JSA are in competition, which drives prices down, and unless you have a single trusted TPA that collectors are willing to pay exorbitant sums to because they offer a better product, you will have to keep dealing with this:

When prices get driven down low enough by competition, you have to cut back on service; i.e- due diligence or close examination. If you want TPA's, you have to take shoddy service or embarrass them so badly with their mistakes that they change the way they do business. I will not state as others have, that they are dishonest - I think their motivation is simply 'staying in business'.

now we have sgc CARD GRADING company receiving, sorting, tagging, data entering, AUTHENTICATING, slabbing, and boxing up your signature for 8-10 dollars per autograph. SWEEEEEET! and they wont tell you who their authenticators are! perfect!!!

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by Runscott

I think their motivation is simply 'staying in business'.

And staying in business means keeping (big) customers happy.

[shelly]

Originally Posted by Deertick

I think Morales, CSC, etal. have authenticated 100 times the amount the big three have. Maybe they can fill the void?
Call it HSA (Horse Shit Authenticatters)?

At least we know there terrible. Its the others that are getting away with out being questioned.