Who was better, who would you take, Mickey Mantle or Willie Mays?

[itjclarke]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

That's hilarious. You mean the series where Mays hit .250 with no HR and 1 RBI? Wow, epic.

True Mantle stunk in that series. But whose team won? .

I think he was using the '62 series as argument for Mantle.

[nolemmings]

Ryan,

I argued this with you and Al two Cleveland Nationals ago (when Don Larsen got in a fight at the hotel bar) and you were just as wrong then as you are now. Hopefully Al has seen the light.

Mantle could hit the ball farther (BOTH WAYS) and could run faster. He had a stronger arm. Most importantly and by a wide margin, he was more CLUTCH.

[ElCabron]

Todd,

I agree that Mantle was more clutch. By a wide margin. And I do believe clutch hitting is real. I'm not so sure he was faster than Mays. Maybe pre-injury. I'm also not sure he had a better arm. But you couldn't really be trying to say that Mantle was better than Mays defensively, could you?

Trivia: Who had the fewest 100-RBI seasons in their career out of the following players:

* Mickey Mantle
* Bob Meusel
* Dolph Camilli
* Vic Wertz
* Rudy York
* Del Ennis
* Steve Garvey
* Danny Tartabull
* Moises Alou
* Magglio Ordonez

-Ryan

[Jlighter]

Originally Posted by NoizeBringer

Todd,

Trivia: Who had the fewest 100-RBI seasons in their career out of the following players:

* Mickey Mantle
* Bob Meusel
* Dolph Camilli
* Vic Wertz
* Rudy York
* Del Ennis
* Steve Garvey
* Danny Tartabull
* Moises Alou
* Magglio Ordonez

-Ryan

That is such a fallacious question. The Mick had 5 90-100 RBI seasons.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by NoizeBringer

Todd,

I agree that Mantle was more clutch. By a wide margin. And I do believe clutch hitting is real. I'm not so sure he was faster than Mays. Maybe pre-injury. I'm also not sure he had a better arm. But you couldn't really be trying to say that Mantle was better than Mays defensively, could you?

Trivia: Who had the fewest 100-RBI seasons in their career out of the following players:

* Mickey Mantle
* Bob Meusel
* Dolph Camilli
* Vic Wertz
* Rudy York
* Del Ennis
* Steve Garvey
* Danny Tartabull
* Moises Alou
* Magglio Ordonez

-Ryan

I'm guessing Mantle.

[Sean]

Another trivia question: who led the league in RBIs more times, Mays or Mantle?

[auggiedoggy]

Originally Posted by Sean

Another trivia question: who led the league in RBIs more times, Mays or Mantle?

Couldn't tell you but Mays is ranked 10th all-time in RBIs with 1,903 while Mantle is ranked 51st with 1,509.

[ElCabron]

Five seasons of 90 to 100 RBI is pretty good. Add that to his 4 100-RBI seasons, and that makes 9 years of 90+. Not bad.

Mays had 14 seasons of 96+.

Mantle led the league in RBI one time more than Mays. How many times did Mantle lead the league in stolen bases? Mays did 4 times. The same amount of times he led the league in home runs.

-Ryan

[timber63401]

Ill just keep it simple and say Mays. Probably the wrong forum to make an arguement on how overrated RBIs are

[nickedson]

I've had this conversation with the late Hall of Fame broadcaster Ernie Harwell many times. He saw Mantle play his entire career and he saw Mays when he got a chance. Based on what they did - not on what they might have done - Ernie long claimed Mays was the best ballplayer he ever saw. Good enough for me.

[bbcard1]

If I was a manager, Mays. Both were great, Willie could do just a little more.

If I was an owner, Mickey. He sold a lot of tickets and won more rings. You could argue he had better talent around him, but I'd have to look at that pretty close to validate it. Mantle had Maris. Mays had McCovey. Mantle had Ford. Mays had Marichal. Probably the Yanks mid-level players were a little better.

[brian1961]

We all have our favorites.

We all have aspects in baseball that are more important to us than others.

We all are much affected by what we've seen , read, and heard from those we trusted and respected. That includes whether we have actually met the given athlete, which can have a profound affect upon us, if the encounter goes "I'll never wash my hand again or forget this day for the rest of my life" or "I made him into a monument in my heart and he just took a sledgehammer and shattered it to pieces. I don't like him anymore. I'll give away or sell any baseball cards I have of him."

There is no answer, per se. We could argue this, heatedly, until we are all blue in the face.

I watched Willie Mays on TV play my Cubs from 67-on. I liked him, respected him, and he was a great player. But in the clutch he fell apart like a Dollar General toy. A few years after he came to Frisco, he had yet to produce any of the New York numbers the fans thought they were going to see. The Frisco boo-birds let loose with tremendous booing. It got under Willie's skin. It got to the point where he asked and then demanded that owner Horace Stoneham move IN the outfield fence at the key areas where his long balls were hit. Mr. Stoneham complied. Can you imagine? The whining crybaby!

I believe the renovations were erected beginning with the 1961 season. Mr. Mays began to hit more home runs--it was very apparent the friendlier Candlestick Park right field porch was having a major effect upon the sensitive slugger. That year Willie hit 40 home runs; he would do so for several years after that. To be sure, Say Hey hit lottsa HRS at other ballparks, but I believe he began hitting more at home, and it was a confidence boost that helped him do better at the other parks.

Still, when the pressure was on during the '62 Series, Willie was a pricked balloon. Mick had an awful Series too, agreed. However, Mr. Mantle had so many other Series appearances where he came through this clutch time remarkably well--great Series performances! Even though they lost '60 and '64, Mickey helped make them so memorable, thrilling, and close by his spectacular play.

This will not count for some. I began collecting in 1961. I lived in a neutral area, the suburbs of Chicago. All the kids would be excited to get a Willie Mays baseball card, but they absolutely HAD to get Mickey Mantle's card in any given year. No one card, certainly not Willie Mays, was worth even up to Mickey Mantle in the hearts of all the kids I was around, and that was a lot of kids.

Most of you talk about Mantle as if he had lousy career hampered by booze, broads, and not taking care of himself. As teammate Hank Bauer retorted in frustration to someone expressing the same thing, look what he did anyway. The numbers are there. The many World Series rings were well-earned and his to wear.

Honestly, I believe if the Giants had remained in New York Willie would have produced much more impressive numbers. More so if Leo Durocher had remained his manager. The vast, and yet cozy Polo Grounds was tailor-made for Willie's extremely wide range. He could make impossible fielding plays, and make them look so exciting to watch. Sure, he did that at Frisco, but his hitting just didn't measure up or look as awe-inspiring as at Polo, where with his speed and its far reaches he turned many hits into doubles and triples. That kind of stuff made Mays a legend.

Guess I never came out and answered the question. I want Mickey Mantle!!!!

[Exhibitman]

The question is context-dependent. If you are asking me to evaluate the Mickey Mantle and Willie Mays as prospects, I would take Mantle every time. He was rocket-fast and could hit with power from both sides. As a prospect he was a once in a lifetime player. After he tore up his knee, became an alcoholic, and started the cycle of abuse and injuries, his value sank quickly. Mays was not as great a prospect as Mantle but by the late 1950s had eclipsed Mantle in terms of value. Mantle's WAR numbers fell off dramatically after 1957. Mantle had 5 seasons with WAR > 8. Mays had 11 seasons with WAR > 8. By the time Mantle was 30 he was basically a good starting player. Mays was an exceptional player until he was 35 and a good starting player until he reached 40. As peak players, Mantle was measurably better. Mays's line for his greatest year [1954]:

1954 151 641 565 119 195 33 13 41 110 8 5 66 57 .345 .411 .667 1.078

WAR: 10.6

Mays had a higher WAR in 1965 [11.2] and his line there wasn't too shabby either:

1965 157 638 558 118 177 21 3 52 112 9 4 76 71 .317 .398 .645 1.043

Mantle's line for his [1956]:

1956 150 652 533 132 188 22 5 52 130 10 1 112 99 .353 .464 .705 1.169

WAR: 11.3

Of course, until either of them can go 18-8, 23-12 and 24-13 and pitch 31 innings with a 0.87 ERA in the World Series, and hit .342 with 714 HRs, neither of them is fit to carry Babe Ruth's bag.

[HRBAKER]

I'd rather have Mays on my team and rather go drinking with Mickey.

[Tao_Moko]

Man, this is tough. I'm going with Mantle because his triple crown year was amazing. I have to keep it that simple or I'll change my mind.

[the 'stache]

The area where Mays wins the argument is his defense. Otherwise, if we're talking offensive production, the "clearly Mays was better" argument is specious at best. Not so fast.

Consider the 162 game averages for their careers:

Mays .302 AVG, 36 HR, 103 RBI, .384 OBP, .557 SLG, .941 OPS, OPS+ 156
Mantle .298, 36 HR, 102 RBI, .421 OBP, .557 SLG, .977 OPS, OPS+ 172

Mantle won three MVP Awards
Mays won two

Mantle won the 1956 Triple Crown. Mays never led the league in RBI, so he never won the Triple Crown

Mantle, though he played four fewer seasons, won more home run titles, four to three

Each player won the batting title once

Mays led his league in runs scored twice. Mantle five times

Mays walked over 100 times in a seasons once, in 1971 when he led the league. Mantle walked over 100 times in a season on ten separate occasions, leading his league five times. Conversely, Mays never led the league in strike outs, and only struck out 100 or more in a seasons once. Mantle struck out over 100 eight times, leading the league in whiffs five times.

Mays led his league in OPS + six times. Mantle led in OPS+ eight times.

Though Mays hit more career home runs, he averaged a homer every 16.48 at bats. Mantle averaged a home run every 15.11 at bats.

When their OPS is adjusted by the ballparks they played in, Mantle clearly comes out on top.

Mays was the far better base stealer, and there's no comparison. But oddly enough, Mantle was the more successful base stealer by the percentages. Mays stole 338 bases in 441 tries (76.64%). Mantle stole 153 bases in 191 attempts (80.10%).

The one thing to keep in mind about Mantle is that he tore his knee up as a rookie tripping over a sprinkler head in the 1951 World Series. He was never the same after that. When he came into the league, Mantle was the fastest man in the league bar none. In a foot race, he'd have left Willie Mays in the dust. That affected his base stealing, as well as his defense. Now, I can't hold that against Willie Mays. There's something to be said about staying relatively healthy, and playing longer. But Mantle's knee injury was not due to negligence on his part. His late-night carousing had nothing to do with that injury, at least.

If I were forced to pick one player of the two, I'd pick Mantle by the slimmest of margins. In his prime, he was the better player. He was not as decorated in the field, but Mantle managed to hit 536 home runs with injuries that would have kept most players off the field. How he managed to do that is a question that will float around in the back of my head until the day they bury me.

[sycks22]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

Ryan,

I argued this with you and Al two Cleveland Nationals ago (when Don Larsen got in a fight at the hotel bar) and you were just as wrong then as you are now. Hopefully Al has seen the light.

Mantle could hit the ball farther (BOTH WAYS) and could run faster. He had a stronger arm. Most importantly and by a wide margin, he was more CLUTCH.

Could run faster? Maybe before he blew his knee out early in his career. 153 to 338 in favor of Mays for stolen bases too doesn't help your cause.

[mr2686]

Caught stealing 38 to 103 in favor of Mantle.

[drc]

As was said in different words before, speculating what a player would have done if he was healthy or otherwise miss time is just that-- speculation. Mays' stats were real.

It's like when people say Babe Ruth would have been the best pitcher ever if he hadn't been moved to the outfield. Pure speculation, if not wishful thinking.

The Mantle/Mays question is a good one though in vaguery. Take which player when and for how long? For a career, obviously Mays. For a shorter period, I can see the arguement Mantle.

For the record, I'd pick Mays. He was the best all around (5 tool) player, which is something I'd want on my team.

Then after I picked Mays, I then you use my second draft pick to pick Mantle. See? It all works out.

[howard38]

.

[peterb69]

According to the Strat-o-matic Hall of Fame set, Mays is better. I picked him over Mantle to be on my Strat team.

[itjclarke]

Originally Posted by sycks22

Could run faster? Maybe before he blew his knee out early in his career. 153 to 338 in favor of Mays for stolen bases too doesn't help your cause.

I believe he did have the fastest home to first, home to 3rd, etc times ever recorded up to that point. That said, those were all hand times, which are pretty unreliable.
(I even ran a hand timed 4.6 40 yarder once, but I know damn well I was never truly 4.6 fast)

I still vote Mays by a long shot.