Who is the greatest player of the Pre-War Era?

RCMcKenzie · #1 04-19-2013, 04:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

Again, I must ask, why in the world is Homerun Baker listed in the poll? For that matter, if there were 50 players listed, why would he be one of them??

FWIW, the all-time WAR list ranks Baker here....

153 Andruw Jones
154 Frank Baker
155 David Cone
156 Joe Jackson

packs · #2 04-19-2013, 04:25 PM

I don't see how anyone could not answer Babe Ruth. It doesn't matter how the sports writers voted. There has only been one player in the history of the game to single handedly outhit an entire league. That player is Babe Ruth.

As talented and great as Cobb was, he didn't change the game. He only did things better than the players around him.

But Ruth did change the game, and every player after him has been trying to live up to what he did.

UKCardGuy · #3 09-26-2021, 06:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by packs

I don't see how anyone could not answer Babe Ruth. It doesn't matter how the sports writers voted. There has only been one player in the history of the game to single handedly outhit an entire league. That player is Babe Ruth.

As talented and great as Cobb was, he didn't change the game. He only did things better than the players around him.

But Ruth did change the game, and every player after him has been trying to live up to what he did.

The question wasn't who most transformed baseball.... It was who was the greatest pre-war player. You said it yourself, Cobb did things better than the players around him. Isnt that the definition of "best"?

More than most on the list, Ruth benefited from the end of the dead ball era.

Considering that Wagner and Cobb played most of thier career when conditions were harder for batters and they have greater all around stats/skills... Cobb and Wagner are clearly ahead of Cobb. I know the modern romanticism is all about Ruth...but that doesn't make him the best.

For me, the list goes Cobb, Wagner then Ruth.

darwinbulldog · #4 09-26-2021, 09:12 PM

#1 Ruth
#2 WaJo

Tabe · #5 09-27-2021, 02:07 AM

Yeah, I can't really see how the answer would be anybody but Ruth. He destroyed pretty much every hitting record - other than average. He had an OBP over .500 five times. FIVE different seasons he was on base more often than not. And had four other seasons of .486 or above. He was on base nearly 10% more often than Cobb (.474 vs .433) AND slugged 35% higher than Cobb (.690 vs .512). AND he had 3+ outstanding seasons as a pitcher.

I'm a big fan of Ty Cobb and Honus Wagner but Ruth is so far out in front of both of them, they're fighting for 3rd place behind him*.

* - to be honest, I'd probably put Rogers Hornsby ahead of both Cobb and Ruth, too. Averaging .402 over a 5-year stretch while hitting for power tops anything Wagner or Cobb did.

rats60 · #6 09-27-2021, 05:35 AM

In fairness to Wagner and Cobb, they slugged a lot lower than Ruth because they were hitting a dead ball and Ruth was hitting a juiced ball. I know I am one of the few that considers parks, but Ruth had a hitters friendly park 314 to right 385 to right center. Wagner 360 to left 462 to left center and 400 to left and 450 to center.

clydepepper · #7 09-27-2021, 05:40 AM

Amazing how many members didn't see 'Pre-War' in the poll's title.

Are we ALL home-skooled?

.

UKCardGuy · #8 09-27-2021, 06:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rats60

In fairness to Wagner and Cobb, they slugged a lot lower than Ruth because they were hitting a dead ball and Ruth was hitting a juiced ball. I know I am one of the few that considers parks, but Ruth had a hitters friendly park 314 to right 385 to right center. Wagner 360 to left 462 to left center and 400 to left and 450 to center.

This!

And remember that the rules changed in 1921 so that balls were changed when they got dirty or worn or damaged. That combined with a "juiced" ball and smaller parks helps to explain some of Ruth's success.

Have a look at this comparison of Cobb and Ruth's stats. https://mlbcomparisons.com/babe-ruth...bb-comparison/

Except for the categories influenced by being a home run hitter, Cobb wins on almost all counts. That says to me that if you take away the benefits that Ruth had (fresh balls, juiced balls, parks etc) then Cobb is clearly the better player. Put it another way, if Cobb played ball from 1918-1938, his stats would be even better!

Ruth most definitely transformed baseball but that doesn't make him the best.

As an analogy, I'm a huge Beatles fan. They changed music when they came along. Like Ruth, they were the right people at the right time. But would I say that they were bigger musical geniuses than Mozart? Nope.

Tabe · #9 09-27-2021, 11:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rats60

In fairness to Wagner and Cobb, they slugged a lot lower than Ruth because they were hitting a dead ball and Ruth was hitting a juiced ball. I know I am one of the few that considers parks, but Ruth had a hitters friendly park 314 to right 385 to right center. Wagner 360 to left 462 to left center and 400 to left and 450 to center.

Ruth hit 49 homers during the dead ball era while playing small parts of 3 seasons, half of another, and 80% of another. It took Cobb 10 seasons to do that - 7 full seasons plus parts of 3 others. Ruth led the majors in slugging and OPS both seasons he played in the outfield during the dead ball era.

While he may not have ended up with 714 homers if they hadn't changed the ball, there's no reason to think he wouldn't have continued to dominate. Look at 1919 - his first full season as something resembling a full-time outfielder and he set the single season home run record. Hitting a dead ball.

Yes, the HOF voting had Cobb ahead of Ruth. I'm not sure I'd put a whole lot of stock in that. Voters were picking from every player ever and Ruth had just retired. Plus, let's be honest, there were a lot of voters with bias against the modern style of play, favoring the high average and steals style of Cobb.

Bottom line, Ruth was a better hitter than Cobb even in the dead ball era.

View Poll Results: Sorry for the initial misstep in posting this poll. Please weigh in with your vote.
Ty Cobb	100	18.69%
Honus Wagner	21	3.93%
Rogers Hornsby	3	0.56%
Joe Jackson	3	0.56%
Lou Gehrig	16	2.99%
Josh Gibson	9	1.68%
Babe Ruth	355	66.36%
Frank Baker	2	0.37%
Walter Johnson	7	1.31%
None of the above	22	4.11%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 535. You may not vote on this poll

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