Who is the greatest player of the Pre-War Era?

[itjclarke]

Originally Posted by tiger8mush

% of ballots on first ever HOF vote in 1936:
Cobb 98.2%
Ruth 95.1%
Wagner 95.1%
Matty 90.7%
WoJo 83.6%

Today, many say Ruth is the clear-cut best ever. 80 years ago, the voters didn't see it that way.

Per my earlier post, I think the bias of some writers may have affected this HOF vote.. Ruth and his style of hitting were the biggest jolt the game had ever seen (and has ever seen since). After Ruth, offense became more of a station to station, wait for the 3 run HR style of play, which was an affront to those who'd loved the strategic bunt, steal, squeeze style of small ball that preceded him. Ruth broke the HR record 4 times! and won only 1 MVP. I've gotta think there was some old school writer's bias there.

[howard38]

/

[itjclarke]

Originally Posted by howard38

For much of Ruth's prime there either was no MVP awarded or a player was no longer eligible after having won it once. During his career there was no award until 1922 and after he won in 1923 he was no longer eligible until the rules were changed in the early thirties.

Point taken, I didn't know that. I still maintain my stance that there was possibly an "old school small ball/purist" element present in that first writers vote.

Adding: especially given every writer over age 35 probably spent their formative years following, even idolizing players of the dead ball era. I know I met the mid-90's with a lot of hesitancy because the game seemed to change over night

[howard38]

/

[CMIZ5290]

Ruth and Cobb, whatever order as 1st or 2nd.....

[HOF Auto Rookies]

As to think who you guys think is the better player. Please don't take the time to look up the stats to find who is who, just look at make your decision.

Player A: Games: 3298, PA: 13941, AB: 12364, Avg: .305, OBP: 374, SLG: .555, OPS: .928, Runs: 2174, Hits: 3771, 2B: 624, 3B: 98, RBI’s: 2297, SB: 240, SO: 1383

Player B: Games: 2986, PA: 12606, AB: 9847, Avg: 298, OBP: .444, SLG: .607, OPS: 1.051, Runs: 2227, Hits: 2935, 2B: 601, 3B: 77, RBI’s: 1996, SB: 514, SO: 1539

Player C: Games: 2509, PA: 10622, AB: 8399, Avg: .342, OBP: .474, SLG: .690, OPS: 1.164, Runs: 2174, Hits: 2873, 2B: 506, 3B: 136, RBI’s: 2220, BB: 2062, SO: 1330

Player D: Games: 2992, PA: 12496, AB: 10881, Avg: .302, OBP: .384, SLG: .557, OPS: .941, Runs: 2062, Hits: 3283, 2B: 523, 3B: 140, RBI’s: 1903, SB: 338, SO: 1526

[CMIZ5290]

Where is Mantle?

[packs]

I would think Player C is the best of the group.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by HOF Auto Rookies

As to think who you guys think is the better player. Please don't take the time to look up the stats to find who is who, just look at make your decision.

Player A: Games: 3298, PA: 13941, AB: 12364, Avg: .305, OBP: 374, SLG: .555, OPS: .928, Runs: 2174, Hits: 3771, 2B: 624, 3B: 98, RBI’s: 2297, SB: 240, SO: 1383

Player B: Games: 2986, PA: 12606, AB: 9847, Avg: 298, OBP: .444, SLG: .607, OPS: 1.051, Runs: 2227, Hits: 2935, 2B: 601, 3B: 77, RBI’s: 1996, SB: 514, SO: 1539

Player C: Games: 2509, PA: 10622, AB: 8399, Avg: .342, OBP: .474, SLG: .690, OPS: 1.164, Runs: 2174, Hits: 2873, 2B: 506, 3B: 136, RBI’s: 2220, BB: 2062, SO: 1330

Player D: Games: 2992, PA: 12496, AB: 10881, Avg: .302, OBP: .384, SLG: .557, OPS: .941, Runs: 2062, Hits: 3283, 2B: 523, 3B: 140, RBI’s: 1903, SB: 338, SO: 1526

Player C is by far the best.

[71buc]

I think you actually are asking who is the greatest pre 1947 player. How can you engage in such a discussion without considering Mays, Aaron, Frank Robinson, or Ken Griffey Jr?

[Eric72]

Thanks to everyone who weighed in here. I am going to edit the title slightly, so as to avoid any further confusion.

Please know that I truly appreciate and value everyone's opinions. It was actually very nice to watch the thread for a full 24 hours and read everything posted within. Everyone was polite and civil, for which I am grateful.

I have added a couple of my earlier posts below to help explain why Mays, Mantle, et al were not included.

Have a great weekend, everyone.

Originally Posted by Eric72

I took my Pre-War starting nine, added, "none of the above" as the tenth choice, and posted the thread...nothing more, nothing less.

Eric

Originally Posted by Eric72

And I did this because the noise from a few of the other threads was benumbing. Sorry, guys...guess I zoned out.

Anyways, carry on.

Best Regards,

Eric

[bn2cardz]

Originally Posted by HOF Auto Rookies

As to think who you guys think is the better player. Please don't take the time to look up the stats to find who is who, just look at make your decision.

Player A: Games: 3298, PA: 13941, AB: 12364, Avg: .305, OBP: 374, SLG: .555, OPS: .928, Runs: 2174, Hits: 3771, 2B: 624, 3B: 98, RBI’s: 2297, SB: 240, SO: 1383

Player B: Games: 2986, PA: 12606, AB: 9847, Avg: 298, OBP: .444, SLG: .607, OPS: 1.051, Runs: 2227, Hits: 2935, 2B: 601, 3B: 77, RBI’s: 1996, SB: 514, SO: 1539

Player C: Games: 2509, PA: 10622, AB: 8399, Avg: .342, OBP: .474, SLG: .690, OPS: 1.164, Runs: 2174, Hits: 2873, 2B: 506, 3B: 136, RBI’s: 2220, BB: 2062, SO: 1330

Player D: Games: 2992, PA: 12496, AB: 10881, Avg: .302, OBP: .384, SLG: .557, OPS: .941, Runs: 2062, Hits: 3283, 2B: 523, 3B: 140, RBI’s: 1903, SB: 338, SO: 1526

So it isn't allowed to be a career pitcher?

[HOF Auto Rookies]

Originally Posted by bn2cardz

So it isn't allowed to be a career pitcher?

I would say no, because pithin is one of the many facets of the overall game

[bn2cardz]

Originally Posted by bn2cardz

So it isn't allowed to be a career pitcher?

Originally Posted by HOF Auto Rookies

I would say no, because pithin is one of the many facets of the overall game

If it is the overall game that you are worried about then why did you only post offensive numbers ONLY? You should have put their fielding stats there for comparison as well.


I still don't understand people who say it is an obvious choice. How can one of the strike out leaders of the pre war era be considered the best player of the pre war era? Even Cobb never struck out more than 55 times in a season, Ruth struck out less than 55 only 5 seasons and 3 of those where when he was a pitcher with Boston. I don't have a gripe if people vote for Ruth, just when they say it is an obvious choice.

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by bn2cardz

So it isn't allowed to be a career pitcher?

Agreed...WaJo had more than 100 complete game shutouts, along with many other astounding career numbers. In my humble opinion, he deserves mention in this discussion.

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by HOF Auto Rookies

As to think who you guys think is the better player. Please don't take the time to look up the stats to find who is who, just look at make your decision.

Player A: Games: 3298, PA: 13941, AB: 12364, Avg: .305, OBP: 374, SLG: .555, OPS: .928, Runs: 2174, Hits: 3771, 2B: 624, 3B: 98, RBI’s: 2297, SB: 240, SO: 1383

Player B: Games: 2986, PA: 12606, AB: 9847, Avg: 298, OBP: .444, SLG: .607, OPS: 1.051, Runs: 2227, Hits: 2935, 2B: 601, 3B: 77, RBI’s: 1996, SB: 514, SO: 1539

Player C: Games: 2509, PA: 10622, AB: 8399, Avg: .342, OBP: .474, SLG: .690, OPS: 1.164, Runs: 2174, Hits: 2873, 2B: 506, 3B: 136, RBI’s: 2220, BB: 2062, SO: 1330

Player D: Games: 2992, PA: 12496, AB: 10881, Avg: .302, OBP: .384, SLG: .557, OPS: .941, Runs: 2062, Hits: 3283, 2B: 523, 3B: 140, RBI’s: 1903, SB: 338, SO: 1526

From a purely staistical perspective, rergarding offense, I would take Player C.

Without fielding stats, though, Player D might not be represented fairly.

Both of them changed the game. One made previously unthinkable hitting a reality. The other made previously unthinkable fielding a reality...and, when adding 660 HR to the stats provided for Player D, he's certainly no slouch.

[bn2cardz]

Originally Posted by HOF Auto Rookies

As to think who you guys think is the better player. Please don't take the time to look up the stats to find who is who, just look at make your decision.

Player A: Games: 3298, PA: 13941, AB: 12364, Avg: .305, OBP: 374, SLG: .555, OPS: .928, Runs: 2174, Hits: 3771, 2B: 624, 3B: 98, RBI’s: 2297, SB: 240, SO: 1383

Player B: Games: 2986, PA: 12606, AB: 9847, Avg: 298, OBP: .444, SLG: .607, OPS: 1.051, Runs: 2227, Hits: 2935, 2B: 601, 3B: 77, RBI’s: 1996, SB: 514, SO: 1539

Player C: Games: 2509, PA: 10622, AB: 8399, Avg: .342, OBP: .474, SLG: .690, OPS: 1.164, Runs: 2174, Hits: 2873, 2B: 506, 3B: 136, RBI’s: 2220, BB: 2062, SO: 1330

Player D: Games: 2992, PA: 12496, AB: 10881, Avg: .302, OBP: .384, SLG: .557, OPS: .941, Runs: 2062, Hits: 3283, 2B: 523, 3B: 140, RBI’s: 1903, SB: 338, SO: 1526

You put player C's walks where you put the other players' stolen bases.

Player A does have a better average of getting the ball in play with a SO every 10 PA and every 9AB. Whereas player C had the worse SO ratio to PA and ABs. So it really depends on what you consider makes someone a better player at the plate. Since RBIs and Runs has a lot to do with who batted in front and behind the player and Average can do a lot with how good the corresponding defense was then the one thing that is dependent on the batter is getting the ball in play I would say player A had the advantage. Also player A has the longer career stamina having played nearly 306 more games then the next longest career. So even though the straight forward stat of career OPS and AVG wouldn't show it, digging deeper into the career stats I would say player A as the advantage.

[itjclarke]

Originally Posted by HOF Auto Rookies

As to think who you guys think is the better player. Please don't take the time to look up the stats to find who is who, just look at make your decision.

Player A: Games: 3298, PA: 13941, AB: 12364, Avg: .305, OBP: 374, SLG: .555, OPS: .928, Runs: 2174, Hits: 3771, 2B: 624, 3B: 98, RBI’s: 2297, SB: 240, SO: 1383

Player B: Games: 2986, PA: 12606, AB: 9847, Avg: 298, OBP: .444, SLG: .607, OPS: 1.051, Runs: 2227, Hits: 2935, 2B: 601, 3B: 77, RBI’s: 1996, SB: 514, SO: 1539

Player C: Games: 2509, PA: 10622, AB: 8399, Avg: .342, OBP: .474, SLG: .690, OPS: 1.164, Runs: 2174, Hits: 2873, 2B: 506, 3B: 136, RBI’s: 2220, BB: 2062, SO: 1330

Player D: Games: 2992, PA: 12496, AB: 10881, Avg: .302, OBP: .384, SLG: .557, OPS: .941, Runs: 2062, Hits: 3283, 2B: 523, 3B: 140, RBI’s: 1903, SB: 338, SO: 1526

I appreicate the want for anonymity but I could identify those stat lines from a mile away. Thanks for sticking the unpopular guy in there. He's gotten some mention so far, but not much. It'll be really interesting to see if he ever gets anywhere near the sort of credit that stat line would normally garner... My thought is "no".

[HOF Auto Rookies]

Originally Posted by itjclarke

I appreicate the want for anonymity but I could identify those stat lines from a mile away. Thanks for sticking the unpopular guy in there. He's gotten some mention so far, but not much. It'll be really interesting to see if he ever gets anywhere near the sort of credit that stat line would normally garner... My thought is "no".

Hey Ian, I hear ya. I look at these quick glance and know who they are, but I agree with you about that player not getting any love.

[Tanman7baseball]

Originally Posted by HOF Auto Rookies

As to think who you guys think is the better player. Please don't take the time to look up the stats to find who is who, just look at make your decision.

Player A: Games: 3298, PA: 13941, AB: 12364, Avg: .305, OBP: 374, SLG: .555, OPS: .928, Runs: 2174, Hits: 3771, 2B: 624, 3B: 98, RBI’s: 2297, SB: 240, SO: 1383

Player B: Games: 2986, PA: 12606, AB: 9847, Avg: 298, OBP: .444, SLG: .607, OPS: 1.051, Runs: 2227, Hits: 2935, 2B: 601, 3B: 77, RBI’s: 1996, SB: 514, SO: 1539

Player C: Games: 2509, PA: 10622, AB: 8399, Avg: .342, OBP: .474, SLG: .690, OPS: 1.164, Runs: 2174, Hits: 2873, 2B: 506, 3B: 136, RBI’s: 2220, BB: 2062, SO: 1330

Player D: Games: 2992, PA: 12496, AB: 10881, Avg: .302, OBP: .384, SLG: .557, OPS: .941, Runs: 2062, Hits: 3283, 2B: 523, 3B: 140, RBI’s: 1903, SB: 338, SO: 1526

The stats are a main factor obviously but what about how the player affected his fellow teammates? I think when people soley look at stats they seem to neglect the intangibles. Im talking about players who were not only good but also made the players around them better. True leaders. A real "spark-plug" if you will. One guy who exemplifies such traits and is surprisingly not on the list is Tris Speaker. I mean what's up with that??? yes I know he was involved in gambling... Still think he was a great leader as from what I remember from reading.

[Jlighter]

Originally Posted by itjclarke

Per my earlier post, I think the bias of some writers may have affected this HOF vote.. Ruth and his style of hitting were the biggest jolt the game had ever seen (and has ever seen since). After Ruth, offense became more of a station to station, wait for the 3 run HR style of play, which was an affront to those who'd loved the strategic bunt, steal, squeeze style of small ball that preceded him. Ruth broke the HR record 4 times! and won only 1 MVP. I've gotta think there was some old school writer's bias there.

This is probably true. Back then the writers also didn't put too much weight into vote percentages and first ballots.