It's now official - Mastro trimmed hisT206 Wagner

[dabigyankeeman]

Whats so pitiful is that some people are saying the card will go UP in value instead of down, because of it becoming the infamous trimmed Wagner. Geez.

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by dabigyankeeman

Whats so pitiful is that some people are saying the card will go UP in value instead of down, because of it becoming the infamous trimmed Wagner. Geez.

It's like people collecting Black Sox cards, and to a lesser extent the villain Ty Cobb. People like controversy. It sells and people collect it.

[HOF Auto Rookies]

Originally Posted by T206Collector

It's like people collecting Black Sox cards, and to a lesser extent the villain Ty Cobb. People like controversy. It sells and people collect it.

+1, well said. Gandil sells fairly well it seems, and I think without the scandal, not so much

[jcmtiger]

Originally Posted by T206Collector

It's like people collecting Black Sox cards, and to a lesser extent the villain Ty Cobb. People like controversy. It sells and people collect it.

I don't think people collect Ty Cobb for being a villain, but for being a Great ballplayer!!!!!

Joe

[bn2cardz]

Originally Posted by sports.yahoo.com

Through a Diamondbacks spokesperson, Kendrick — the card's current owner — told Yahoo! Sports:
"As a collector of rare cards and a fan who enjoys the history of the game of baseball, today's news does not change my pride in owning the Honus Wagner T-206 card. In fact, I've been advised that the notoriety of this turn of events has actually increased the value of the card and I will continue to enjoy having it as part of the 'Diamondbacks collection.' "

Who advised him? Joe Orlando?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Spin.

[ruth-gehrig]

Now how did it "pass" PSA without getting deemed trimmed altered?

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by ruth-gehrig

Now how did it "pass" PSA without getting deemed trimmed altered?

Inexperienced grader.

[bigwinnerx]

Think it'll go for more. It has a story...and what a story. It's not just one of the regular others that come up with every passing REA auction. Gretzky, trimmed, various lawsuits and court cases...it's like a crime novel.

If you have 2 million to spend on a card, it's not your last dollars anyway, and it's a/the storied Wagner. Think of the auction description book that'll be written to describe it and the stories you'll get to pass on at your next swank cocktail party.

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by bigwinnerx

Think it'll go for more. It has a story...and what a story. It's not just one of the regular others that come up with every passing REA auction. Gretzky, trimmed, various lawsuits and court cases...it's like a crime novel.

If you have 2 million to spend on a card, it's not your last dollars anyway, and it's a/the storied Wagner. Think of the auction description book that'll be written to describe it and the stories you'll get to pass on at your next swank cocktail party.

The Cobb/Edwards Wagner has a story too....how much would it sell for?

[ruth-gehrig]

I believe the main issue for us smaller people who can't afford million dollar cards and this hobby as a whole is how many other cards are in holders that don't match the card? How did it get slabbed that way? If it was a collaboration between Mastro and PSA/Orlando will it get admitted to???

[lharri3600]

Originally Posted by ruth-gehrig

Now how did it "pass" PSA without getting deemed trimmed altered?

Now that's an ez one!

[KCRfan1]

Originally Posted by ruth-gehrig

Now how did it "pass" PSA without getting deemed trimmed altered?

That's my question too. PSA looses a lot of credibility in my eyes ( even though I buy raw ) and I would think the collectors who only collect PSA or graded cards have to ask the same question. Do ANY of the grading companies measure the cards for correct size or do cards just pass an eye test? Grading is all over the place. Look at any PSA 5 and you will find card quality of all sorts. Yes, I resent the grading companies as a contributor to driving up the prices of cards. Before the grading companies, the cards we purchased had to pass a test, a test of our own eyes. This Wagner should be graded Authentic, evidence of trimming ( or trimmed ) therefore reducing the price / value of the card significantly. I'm curious if there is any legal recourse against PSA.

[Tanman7baseball]

I'm curious if there is any legal recourse against PSA.[/QUOTE]

Lawyers who are viewing this thread please correct me if I'm wrong..

If Orlando filed for a case, PSA will only be involved if proven to knowingly grade the card with the knowledge of Mastro's trimming. PSA is not liable if they did not know Mastro trimmed it because their duty is to grade/authenticate a card in a reasonable manner. If somehow it is proven PSA breached this duty then they are with recovering the damages. But in the end it's an opinion service, and their reputation is the only thing that will be effected until proven otherwise.

[I Only Smoke 4 the Cards]

Originally Posted by Tanman7baseball

I'm curious if there is any legal recourse against PSA.

As a lawyer I think that PSA is in a sticky situation. They face some liability because the grader said that he knew the card was trimmed, but still gave it a numerical grade. The real question is will Kendrick, the only person with standing to bring a claim, sue the company. The article seems to indicate that he will not.

Another intersting question is what if any liability they face for allowing the card to remain encapsulated at this point. The cards encapsulation is their seal of approval that the card is an 8 - now it has been legally established that it is altered, thus an A. I am not sure of their policies but I would imagine that there is a provision, or should be, that allows them to buy back cards that were fraudulently encapsulated and remove them. Again issue stems from the knowing encapsulation of the fraudlent card - I would love to see the Justice Department's position.

[Kenny Cole]

[QUOTE] The real question is will Kendrick, the only person with standing to bring a claim, sue the company. The article seems to indicate that he will not.
[QUOTE]

I don't think that statement is accurate at all. IMO, those with standing to sue are everyone who got bid up and purchased the card based upon the false impression that it was actually an 8. The grader's statement makes it real ugly -- sort of in the category of fraud per se. In that regard, PSA certainly can't claim that it didn't expect buyers to rely upon the grade it gave because reliance upon the grade is precisely what it has been selling since day one.

Every purchaser who spent more than they would have had the true condition of the card been disclosed has a claim IMO. There may be defenses to the claim, like the Statute of Limitations, but I'm not seeing them working so well with respect to this particular card. It will be interesting to see what transpires.

[travrosty]

Originally Posted by KCRfan1

That's my question too. PSA looses a lot of credibility in my eyes ( even though I buy raw ) and I would think the collectors who only collect PSA or graded cards have to ask the same question. Do ANY of the grading companies measure the cards for correct size or do cards just pass an eye test? Grading is all over the place. Look at any PSA 5 and you will find card quality of all sorts. Yes, I resent the grading companies as a contributor to driving up the prices of cards. Before the grading companies, the cards we purchased had to pass a test, a test of our own eyes. This Wagner should be graded Authentic, evidence of trimming ( or trimmed ) therefore reducing the price / value of the card significantly. I'm curious if there is any legal recourse against PSA.

just pass an eye test most of the time, on psa's site, they answer the question if they put a ruler to every card, and the answer is no.

[AMBST95]

We'll see what he thinks when it becomes the first Wagner to take a loss in a public sale. If you are a baller kind of collector, writing checks with multiple commas, you want the best, not what used to be the best.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by bn2cardz

Who advised him? Joe Orlando?

Maybe, and if he did he might be right. I don't condone the fraud with the trimming but it's still the best looking Wags in the hobby. I am still undecided if I think it's value has held. It certainly might have. It's hard to say.....

[Peter_Spaeth]

David Hall is now in an interesting position. He of the magnifying glass.

[Orioles1954]

Best looking? Really? Every time I see that card now I'll think "crimininal", "fraud", "fake" and "trimmed" before "best looking" comes to mind.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Orioles1954

Best looking? Really? Every time I see that card now I'll think "crimininal", "fraud", "fake" and "trimmed" before "best looking" comes to mind.

You are entitled to your opinion but no matter what you say, what I said is true.

[Orioles1954]

Originally Posted by Leon

no matter what you say, what I said is true.

Well, thank you. Whenever I need to know absolute truth, I know who to go to.

[barrysloate]

With each past sale, the new owners were certainly aware of the unconfirmed rumor it was trimmed. And they had the right to reject it as merely speculation.

Now it is no longer a rumor, it's a fact. If it comes up for sale, prospective bidders will know that. Will it affect the value? Perhaps a little, but not a lot. It very well may sell for more. Who knows? That's up to the bidders.

[Jay Wolt]

People who purchase T206 Wagner's for 7 figures are a different breed then the rest of us.
If I spend $100 on a card and its deemed altered it keeps me up at night.
To Mr. Kendrick, its a nice card then brings him notoriety and the cost is pocket change to him.
Hell, he's picked up free agents for several million who's ended up being worthless and released.
Not saying Bill Mastro's trim job is justified or condoned, but Mr. Kendrick may look at the $2+ million he spent differently.
He's got exposure and an iconic card and as Leon states, a great looking one at that.

[David W]

Originally Posted by Jay Wolt

People who purchase T206 Wagner's for 7 figures are a different breed then the rest of us.
If I spend $100 on a card and its deemed altered it keeps me up at night.
To Mr. Kendrick, its a nice card then brings him notoriety and the cost is pocket change to him.
Hell, he's picked up free agents for several million who's ended up being worthless and released.
Not saying Bill Mastro's trim job is justified or condoned, but Mr. Kendrick may look at the $2+ million he spent differently.
He's got exposure and an iconic card and as Leon states, a great looking one at that.

Yes. Now he has something else to talk about at the Country Club. He already owned the most famous card ever, now he owns the most infamous famous card ever.

[chaddurbin]

Originally Posted by Jay Wolt

People who purchase T206 Wagner's for 7 figures are a different breed then the rest of us.
If I spend $100 on a card and its deemed altered it keeps me up at night.
To Mr. Kendrick, its a nice card then brings him notoriety and the cost is pocket change to him.
Hell, he's picked up free agents for several million who's ended up being worthless and released.
Not saying Bill Mastro's trim job is justified or condoned, but Mr. Kendrick may look at the $2+ million he spent differently.
He's got exposure and an iconic card and as Leon states, a great looking one at that.

agreed...future owners of this card won't be collectors, just like the past owners. value of this card won't suddenly have a big drop. it will still be the highest priced wagner. and if kendrick don't get his price, he'll just keep it for his son to play with.

[gnaz01]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

With each past sale, the new owners were certainly aware of the unconfirmed rumor it was trimmed. And they had the right to reject it as merely speculation.

Now it is no longer a rumor, it's a fact. If it comes up for sale, prospective bidders will know that. Will it affect the value? Perhaps a little, but not a lot. It very well may sell for more. Who knows? That's up to the bidders.

Barry,

I 100% agree with yours and Leon's statement. My thoughts are this: I think the value will remain flat or maybe decline a little IF it is kept in the same PSA holder of a NM-MT 8. We all, I think, should concur that it should reside in a PSA "Authentic" holder and IF that happens (which never will happen, IMO) then the value would drop dramatically.

Greg

[Shoele$$]

Originally Posted by gnaz01

Barry,

I 100% agree with yours and Leon's statement. My thoughts are this: I think the value will remain flat or maybe decline a little IF it is kept in the same PSA holder of a NM-MT 8. We all, I think, should concur that it should reside in a PSA "Authentic" holder and IF that happens (which never will happen, IMO) then the value would drop dramatically.

Greg

That's the whole point right there, it's infamous and controversial because of the story behind the PSA 8 slab that it resides in......change it to the correct "A" slab and the allure will all but disappear.

[HOF Auto Rookies]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

With each past sale, the new owners were certainly aware of the unconfirmed rumor it was trimmed. And they had the right to reject it as merely speculation.

Now it is no longer a rumor, it's a fact. If it comes up for sale, prospective bidders will know that. Will it affect the value? Perhaps a little, but not a lot. It very well may sell for more. Who knows? That's up to the bidders.

Well said Barry, everyone who was a potential buyer of this card, is going to research the history on it. I doubt, most likely anyone would throw 2mill on a card, or any item for that matter, without researching it.

[teetwoohsix]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

With each past sale, the new owners were certainly aware of the unconfirmed rumor it was trimmed. And they had the right to reject it as merely speculation.

Now it is no longer a rumor, it's a fact. If it comes up for sale, prospective bidders will know that. Will it affect the value? Perhaps a little, but not a lot. It very well may sell for more. Who knows? That's up to the bidders.

You are right Barry, they had to know about the unconfirmed rumors- but, I'm sure they also had to put at least a little faith behind the grade it was given. Had it not been graded an 8, I highly doubt the card would have sold for as much as it did.

There's no doubt it is a beautiful card. But, I don't think it is any different than any other T206 that's been trimmed; re-holdered with an "A" trimmed. I don't think it would be right to term it "handcut", like a printers scrap card or something.

He claims he trimmed the "sides"? I wish we could get more details. Sounds like it may have been a strip? Or was it trimmed all the way around? If so, maybe a sheet? I hope the judge makes him explain in detail

Sincerely, Clayton

[ls7plus]

Originally Posted by Leon

Maybe, and if he did he might be right. I don't condone the fraud with the trimming but it's still the best looking Wags in the hobby. I am still undecided if I think it's value has held. It certainly might have. It's hard to say.....

This certainly isn't any kind of surprise to anyone. The card is in fact the best appearing Wagner by a wide margin, and its mystique won't change at all. I believe most of the owners of the card, if not absolutely all of them, already knew what Mastro recently confirmed. My humble prediction is that it will continue to rise in value as it has habitually done, and will change hands for $50 million or more within a quarter century or so (that's in the vicinity of 12% compounded annually, a rate a top flight collectible is easily capable of in most collectible fields).

Best wishes,

Larry