Ty Cobb ..Separating Fact from Fiction

[mr2686]

Jim, there's been a little bit of discussion on this topic over the last few years on a couple of threads, and I've always had a hard time understanding the "myth" of Cobb's demeanor vs the many letters and notes that have been published from him (which all have seemed very cordial). I think between Stump and Dan Okrent (he called Cobb the great black mark on baseball in the Ken Burns series...like he would know), the Cobb myth has be perpetuated. I hope someday someone will write an accurate book on the man.

[JimStinson]

Originally Posted by mr2686

Jim, there's been a little bit of discussion on this topic over the last few years on a couple of threads, and I've always had a hard time understanding the "myth" of Cobb's demeanor vs the many letters and notes that have been published from him (which all have seemed very cordial). I think between Stump and Dan Okrent (he called Cobb the great black mark on baseball in the Ken Burns series...like he would know), the Cobb myth has be perpetuated. I hope someday someone will write an accurate book on the man.

Most of the modern day information came from Stump which was almost all fabricated , and from team mate Sam Crawford who was interviewed by Larry Ritter in "Glory of their Times" ....Crawford and Cobb WERE rivals so his dislike of Cobb was obvious , If Cobb had outlived Crawford maybe Crawford would be the villan today...

However to keep things in context , Ty Cobb was a FIERCE competitor ! You don't hit .367 over a career by just "showing up".. and he played in the dead ball era and was no choir boy , not too many of his contemporaries were. But he was certainly not the demon history has made him out to be.
_______________________
jim@stinsonsports.com

[byrone]

Originally Posted by JimStinson

Most of the modern day information came from Stump which was almost all fabricated , and from team mate Sam Crawford who was interviewed by Larry Ritter in "Glory of their Times" ....Crawford and Cobb WERE rivals so his dislike of Cobb was obvious , If Cobb had outlived Crawford maybe Crawford would be the villan today...

However to keep things in context , Ty Cobb was a FIERCE competitor ! You don't hit .367 over a career by just "showing up".. and he played in the dead ball era and was no choir boy , not too many of his contemporaries were. But he was certainly not the demon history has made him out to be.
_______________________
jim@stinsonsports.com

Regarding Sam Crawford, was it not established fact that Cobb lobbied hard to have Crawford inducted into the Hall of Fame?

[JimStinson]

Originally Posted by byrone

Regarding Sam Crawford, was it not established fact that Cobb lobbied hard to have Crawford inducted into the Hall of Fame?

Thats true ! and the following write up might make the issue clear. On a personal note I once owned a snapshot taken at "Toots Shors" place in NYC , In the 1950's Cobb and Crawford were seated together. Cobb was smiling and Crawford had a look on his face like he had just smelled a pile of sh*t..

In retirement, Cobb wrote a letter to a writer for The Sporting News accusing Crawford of not helping in the outfield and of intentionally fouling off balls when Cobb was stealing a base. Crawford learned about the letter in 1946 and accused Cobb of being a “cheapskate” who never helped his teammates. He said that Cobb had not been a very good fielder, “so he blamed me.” Crawford denied intentionally trying to deprive Cobb of stolen bases, insisting that Cobb had “dreamed that up.”

When asked about the feud, Cobb attributed it to jealousy. He felt that Crawford was “a hell of a good player,” but he was “second best” on the Tigers and “hated to be an also ran.” Cobb biographer Richard Bak noted that the two “only barely tolerated each other” and agreed with Cobb that Crawford’s attitude was driven by Cobb’s having stolen Crawford’s thunder.

Although they may not have spoken to each other, Cobb and Crawford developed an uncanny ability to communicate nonverbally with looks and nods on the base paths. They became one of the most successful double steal pairings in baseball history.

After Cobb died, a reporter found hundreds of letters in his home responding to letters Cobb had written to influential people, lobbying for Crawford’s induction into the Hall of Fame. Crawford was reportedly unaware of Cobb’s efforts until after Cobb had died
____________________
jim@stinsonsports.com

[gnaz01]

Originally Posted by JimStinson

Thats true ! and the following write up might make the issue clear. On a personal note I once owned a snapshot taken at "Toots Shors" place in NYC , In the 1950's Cobb and Crawford were seated together. Cobb was smiling and Crawford had a look on his face like he had just smelled a pile of sh*t..

In retirement, Cobb wrote a letter to a writer for The Sporting News accusing Crawford of not helping in the outfield and of intentionally fouling off balls when Cobb was stealing a base. Crawford learned about the letter in 1946 and accused Cobb of being a “cheapskate” who never helped his teammates. He said that Cobb had not been a very good fielder, “so he blamed me.” Crawford denied intentionally trying to deprive Cobb of stolen bases, insisting that Cobb had “dreamed that up.”

When asked about the feud, Cobb attributed it to jealousy. He felt that Crawford was “a hell of a good player,” but he was “second best” on the Tigers and “hated to be an also ran.” Cobb biographer Richard Bak noted that the two “only barely tolerated each other” and agreed with Cobb that Crawford’s attitude was driven by Cobb’s having stolen Crawford’s thunder.

Although they may not have spoken to each other, Cobb and Crawford developed an uncanny ability to communicate nonverbally with looks and nods on the base paths. They became one of the most successful double steal pairings in baseball history.

After Cobb died, a reporter found hundreds of letters in his home responding to letters Cobb had written to influential people, lobbying for Crawford’s induction into the Hall of Fame. Crawford was reportedly unaware of Cobb’s efforts until after Cobb had died
____________________
jim@stinsonsports.com

What a COOL story!!

[packs]

I love this stuff. Thank you so much for posting.

[Mr. Zipper]

Very enjoyable.

Makes me want to get another Cobb signed item! :-)

[Jay Wolt]

Jim, nice write up of Cobb. My youngest is a big Cobb fan and when we picked him up from the 101st Airborne graduation at Ft Benning.
We went straight to the Cobb museum in Royston, GA inside Cobb's Memorial hospital.
Though the museum was closed when we got there, we both appreciated being there in Cobb's hometown, so it wasn't a wasted trip.

[byrone]

Cobb's reputation seems to have negatively distorted more than just about any other person I can think of. Why did his old teammates and friends not better defend him after he passed away? Why was there (seemingly) not much effort by media and even family to better present his legacy? For the past several decades it has been open season on him, and while I'm sure he had his numerous faults, as do we all, it really seems unfair to Cobb.

[JimStinson]

Setting the record straight is what started this thread ... So in a way we are doing it...This is from SMITHSONIAN.COM and pretty much explains what happened after Cobb passed away......

Stump’s True magazine article won the Associated Press award for the best sports story of 1962 and went a long way in cementing the public’s memory of the baseball great. “From all of baseball, three men and three only appeared for his funeral,” Stump wrote at the end of his story, as if Cobb died a despised man who had alienated opponents and teammates alike. But the Sporting News reported that Cobb’s family had told friends and baseball officials that they wanted his funeral (held just 48 hours after he died) to be private and requested that they not attend, despite offers from several baseball greats to serve as pallbearers. Most of Cobb’s closest baseball friends were, in fact, already dead by 1961.

Doctors, nurses and hospital staff who attended to Cobb in his final months later came forward to say they never observed any of the rude or abusive behavior attributed to Cobb in Stump’s article. And a friendship-ending argument Stump described in a dramatic scene between Cobb and Ted Williams never happened, according to Williams. “He’s full of it,” he said of Stump.

In addition, it should be noted that Cobb’s views on race evolved after he retired from baseball. In 1952, when many whites from the Deep South were still opposed to blacks mixing with whites both in and out of baseball, Cobb was not one of them. “Certainly it is O.K. for them to play,” Cobb told a reporter. “I see no reason in the world why we shouldn’t compete with colored athletes as long as they conduct themselves with politeness and gentility. Let me say also that no white man has the right to be less of a gentleman than a colored man, in my book that goes not only for baseball but in all walks of life.” In his last year of life, Cobb may have shown a cantankerous side, but it seemed reserved for the state of baseball, which he saw as over-reliant on the home run and lacking in players of all-around skill. Willie “Mays is the only man in baseball I’d pay to see play,” he said not long before he died
___________________
jim@stinsonsports.com

[travrosty]

I guess he made a lot of money from coca cola stock but a LOT of money in general motors.

[UnVme7]

Ahh, that makes sense then...

Originally Posted by JimStinson

Cobb’s family had told friends and baseball officials that they wanted his funeral (held just 48 hours after he died) to be private and requested that they not attend, despite offers from several baseball greats to serve as pallbearers. Most of Cobb’s closest baseball friends were, in fact, already dead by 1961.[/B]


___________________
jim@stinsonsports.com

[Hankphenom]

There's always two sides to every story, of course, but it wasn't just Crawford in the "The Glory of Their Times" with a string of uncomplimentary things to say about Cobb, but also Davey Jones, who has some extremely unflattering stories to tell. In researching my book, I came across a number of contemporary accounts of Cobb's temper and fistfights he got into with players, umpires, and civilians. On the other hand, Walter Johnson didn't have anything bad to say about Cobb, and thought he was "misunderstood." My mother found Cobb to be the perfect Southern Gentlemen. Anybody read Alexander's biography recently enough to be able to weigh in on how that treat's Cobb as a person?

[byrone]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

There's always two sides to every story, of course, but it wasn't just Crawford in the "The Glory of Their Times" with a string of uncomplimentary things to say about Cobb, but also Davey Jones, who has some extremely unflattering stories to tell. In researching my book, I came across a number of contemporary accounts of Cobb's temper and fistfights he got into with players, umpires, and civilians. On the other hand, Walter Johnson didn't have anything bad to say about Cobb, and thought he was "misunderstood." My mother found Cobb to be the perfect Southern Gentlemen. Anybody read Alexander's biography recently enough to be able to weigh in on how that treat's Cobb as a person?

Hank, Cobb really thought a lot of Walter...

"On August 2, 1907, I encountered the most threatening sight I ever saw on the ballfield. He was only a rookie, and we licked our lips as we warmed up for the first game of a doubleheader in Washington. Evidently the manager of the Senators had picked a rube out of the cornfields of the deepest bushes to pitch against us.....He was a tall, shambling galoot of about 20 with arms so long they hung out of his sleeves and with a sidearm delivery that looked unimpressive at first glance.....One of us imitated a cow mooing and we hollered at the manager: 'get your pitchfork ready, your hayseed's on his way back to the barn'......The first time I faced him I watched him take that easy windup and then something went past me that made me flinch. The thing just hissed with danger. We couldn't touch him....every one of us knew we'd met the most powerful arm ever turned loose in a ball park."

Ty Cobb on Walter Johnson

[Rob L]

Wow. Talk about distortion by Stumpf. Thanks Jim, a great read!!