Mastro Set to get 30 months or less- NY Daily News

[botn]

From the article:

"In a memorandum filed in Chicago federal court on Tuesday, Assistant United States Attorney Nancy DePodesta acknowledged that prosecutors believe Mastro stole up to $1 million from collectors through shill bidding, while Mastro’s defense team says the one-time king of cards stole less than $70,000 from bidders."

Whether it was 70K, a million or something in between, even at 1 million that pales in comparison to what each of the top card doctors take off of collectors every year. Does not take many PSA 10s or SGC 98s to get to a million bucks.

Not saying shill bidding should not be stopped but think the Feds were placed on the wrong trail if they really wanted to clean up the hobby.

[glynparson]

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by botn

From the article:

"In a memorandum filed in Chicago federal court on Tuesday, Assistant United States Attorney Nancy DePodesta acknowledged that prosecutors believe Mastro stole up to $1 million from collectors through shill bidding, while Mastro’s defense team says the one-time king of cards stole less than $70,000 from bidders."

Whether it was 70K, a million or something in between, even at 1 million that pales in comparison to what each of the top card doctors take off of collectors every year. Does not take many PSA 10s or SGC 98s to get to a million bucks.

Not saying shill bidding should not be stopped but think the Feds were placed on the wrong trail if they really wanted to clean up the hobby.

Well in fairness they did bring in the Wagner, although I am on record as agreeing with you repeatedly that card doctoring is a much bigger problem than shill bidding. Speaking of which, will David Hall continue to insist the Wagner was good in the face of a court submission?

[botn]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Well in fairness they did bring in the Wagner, although I am on record as agreeing with you repeatedly that card doctoring is a much bigger problem than shill bidding.

That is 1 of probably hundreds of thousands of altered cards floating around in graded holders.

Speaking of which, will David Hall continue to insist the Wagner was good in the face of a court submission?

Grading companies do not like to buy back cards. And typically they don't unless they are forced. Once the holder is sealed, the card is graded correctly.

[HRBAKER]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Well in fairness they did bring in the Wagner, although I am on record as agreeing with you repeatedly that card doctoring is a much bigger problem than shill bidding. Speaking of which, will David Hall continue to insist the Wagner was good in the face of a court submission?

Well I guess it's a matter of how you prefer to be defrauded.
I guess maybe in terms of sheer magnitude and total monetary effect.

[ullmandds]

Funny...I stumbled upon this book today at 1/2 price books and couldn't resist for $6. It's actually a very entertaining book featuring many real images of vintage cards we all know and love...not just most generic stuff. I mean how cool is this raw goudey tobacco box image???!!!!

Maybe it was these such intangibles...ie bookmaking skills...that got Bill's proposed sentence downsized?!?!

[packs]

Edited out.

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Very interesting. The 30 month sentence does seem rather light - especially since Mastro won't testify against Allen according to the article. The $70K amount does seem very low in my opinion. Of course Doug Allen will likely be accountable for a significant amount of money lost due to the shill bidding too.

As for the card doctoring, I agree that it is a huge problem and believe me I've tried to get law enforcement involved at a Federal, state and local level. I know that several card doctors are aware of my failed efforts and sadly, it's empowered them that much more since they know how hard it is to get law enforcement to take the issue seriously. It's all very sad.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by WhenItWasAHobby

Very interesting. The 30 month sentence does seem rather light - especially since Mastro won't testify against Allen according to the article. The $70K amount does seem very low in my opinion. Of course Doug Allen will likely be accountable for a significant amount of money lost due to the shill bidding too.

As for the card doctoring, I agree that it is a huge problem and believe me I've tried to get law enforcement involved at a Federal, state and local level. I know that several card doctors are aware of my failed efforts and sadly, it's empowered them that much more since they know how hard it is to get law enforcement to take the issue seriously. It's all very sad.

Dan- you have done, and tried to do, more than almost anyone else in the hobby to help with getting the doctoring culprits out of the hobby. I know what you went through (and it was a LOT). I applaud you for that. Your actions haven't gone unnoticed.

[Matthew H]

Originally Posted by HRBAKER

Well I guess it's a matter of how you prefer to be defrauded.
I guess maybe in terms of sheer magnitude and total monetary effect.

+1

Card doctoring mostly affects the geniuses collecting mint tobacco cards (post war too)

As far as Bill, at least he didn't rat on his friends, I respect him for that.

[conor912]

Originally Posted by Matthew H

+1

Card doctoring mostly affects the geniuses collecting mint tobacco cards (post war too).

Which is why I only collect up to EX in pre-war. I refuse to believe that a little piece of cardboard can survive 70 plus years and not get a few dings on it.

[botn]

Card doctoring is not just done on high grade, fellas. It is done on any card which offers itself to being improved. From Good to Ex can be a nice pay day on Cobb, Ruth or 35 T206 commons. This is not just the deep pocket collectors who are impacted. I collect mainly lower to mid grade and I come across lots of altered cards. I pass on far more purchases than I should have to.

[conor912]

Originally Posted by botn

Card doctoring is not just done on high grade, fellas. It is done on any card which offers itself to being improved. From Good to Ex can be a nice pay day on Cobb, Ruth or 35 T206 commons. This is not just the deep pocket collectors who are impacted. I collect mainly lower to mid grade and I come across lots of altered cards. I pass on far more purchases than I should have to.

I 100% agree, but if there's a segment (i.e. high grade pre-war) that I can all-together ignore, then all the better.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by Matthew H

+1

Card doctoring mostly affects the geniuses collecting mint tobacco cards (post war too)

As far as Bill, at least he didn't rat on his friends, I respect him for that.

I like this post.

I also like the one you were responding to, regarding "how you prefer to be defrauded." I prefer extravagant shipping costs, but having your pet shill me up to my ceiling bid is also fairly pain-free. You are also free to trim the edges off of a card, but please slip and cut off the end of your finger while doing so.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Matthew H

+1

As far as Bill, at least he didn't rat on his friends, I respect him for that.

He desperately tried to "rat" on his friends from the first day. His lawyer indicated on day 1 that Bill was cooperating against his "friends." Ever think that the government couldn't use him because he was simply unable to tell the truth?

[E93]

Originally Posted by Matthew H

Card doctoring mostly affects the geniuses collecting mint tobacco cards (post war too)

Are you being serious? That is simply not true. If there is money to be made by ironing out a crease and turning a card from gd to ex, you better believe the doctors are doing it.
JimB

[E93]

Just saw that Greg said almost exactly the same thing in post #28.
JimB

[Runscott]

Sharpen a card and you not only make a mint, but you create a supposedly NM card that is physically less of a card than it was when it came out of the tobacco pack. No, I don't want anyone adding color to a fr-gd card and turning it into a g-vg, but if somehow one slips by me, I'm not out near as much money as I would be if I unholdered a trimmed high-grade card.

I'm not for altering a card in any way, but there is a huge difference between ironing out a crease and trimming the edges. And while the grading companies quite frequently miss trimmings (non-maliciously in many instances), it would be ridiculous for them to miss re-coloring, gluing down paper, or adding paper to a card. I know they've done it, but it's inexcusable.

[Matthew H]

Originally Posted by E93

Are you being serious? That is simply not true. If there is money to be made by ironing out a crease and turning a card from gd to ex, you better believe the doctors are doing it.
JimB

Jim, I personally don't use the same grading scale as tpg, I don't see a big difference between an excellent card with one flaw and a straight excellent card. I place no value in technical condition. It's all eye appeal for me, I even think some wear is kinda pretty. A very small percentage of what I have is in "excellent" condition. I'm pretty confident that I can tell, on the issues that I collect, whether or not a card is altered. With that being said, I wasn't really being serious, I was joking around, card doctoring is a serious issue.