The Further Decline of Brick & Mortar...

[Orioles1954]

Has there ever been a primarily vintage card shop?

[mintacular]

Yes, 90% of store owners will overcharge for vintage. I find that the only way to get a good price is to cherry-pick commons and pay "book price" which in some cases is ok. I did recently pay decent coin for a '57 ungraded that would have been very hard to buy online....But most run of the mill off-centered stars/rc's are way overpriced....Also, sometimes Beckett is wrong in the other direction, i.e. underpriced. Would gladly pay for '57 Lucky Penny cards at their prices. Anyway, the card I bought for $100, would not have bought the same card online:

[Tanman7baseball]

Originally Posted by Orioles1954

Has there ever been a primarily vintage card shop?

I remember a primarily vintage shop near Orange County, CA back about 10 years ago. It closed down (don't remember when) but it only carried extremely high-end cards and memorabilia. Literally I can only remember things being in the thousands... Since I was only 12 years old I obviously couldn't afford anything. I'm assuming it closed down because it just turned into a museum instead of a card shop. Sadly, I feel most shops are like this.

I have been thinking about our hobby a lot lately. I am in my early 20s and rarely do I find a vintage collector that is my age. Now this makes me think...what is the average age for a vintage baseball card collector? 45-55 years old or so?

I collect cards, because I love baseball. I have yet to sell anything I own, but I know there will come a time when I will. My question is, what is going to happen to the card market when the average 45-55 year old "kicks the bucket"? Will card prices plunge? I know about 2 other people who enjoy collecting vintage baseball cards that are my age. I am finishing up college here at Oklahoma State University and have talked to hundreds of people about the baseball card world. No interest. The last 6 months I have tried to help a man start up a local card shop. Within that 6 month span I did not meet one person my age who collected baseball cards (modern or vintage).

My ultimate question is who will I sell to in 40 or 50 years?

[Texxxx]

I have one shop in the town I live in. Next one is 160 miles away. The guy that runs it is friendly enough but if you don't know what things are worth he has no problem sticking it to you. He never really got to me but I have seen him way over sell things to other people. The vintage stuff he has is way over priced so I don't buy many cards there. I believe they are really just his collection that he puts out for show with the old saying that everything is for sale for the right price. If I had a store I could see doing that.

[Seattle799]

In many ways ebay has been a blessing and curse. It is nice logging on and being able to buy pretty much any card you want (it may take a few months to find it listed, but eventually it's going to be there). I grew up in Minneapolis and once a year there was the Thunderbird show (EVERYBODY who was anybody in the 90's knows about the T-bird show). At any rate, I remember looking forward to that show for months because it was the one place you could find just about anything you wanted.

Now, log on to ebay and just buy it. I don't know... I just think part of the fun died when ebay caught on.

I get that there are far less kids collecting now. But the future isn't completely bleak. I turned 30 a week ago, I am approaching 50/524 on the monster.

[Orioles1954]

To answer my own question (bad form, I know)....I've been in the hobby since 1984 when I was 8 years old. First card shop visited was Dixies Card Shop in Williamsport, PA. Second card shop was the legendary Den's Collectors Den in Laurel, MD. I've been to hundreds of shops over the decades since and I've NEVER seen one that depends on vintage card sales as its main source of revenue. It's has always been packs, boxes and singles of the day, and even supplies before vintage. House of Cards in Silver Spring, Maryland has a large supply of vintage singles and out of every 100 customers, maybe 10% purchase pre-1960s cards.

[Bored5000]

Originally Posted by Tanman7baseball

I have been thinking about our hobby a lot lately. I am in my early 20s and rarely do I find a vintage collector that is my age. Now this makes me think...what is the average age for a vintage baseball card collector? 45-55 years old or so?

I collect cards, because I love baseball. I have yet to sell anything I own, but I know there will come a time when I will. My question is, what is going to happen to the card market when the average 45-55 year old "kicks the bucket"? Will card prices plunge? I know about 2 other people who enjoy collecting vintage baseball cards that are my age. I am finishing up college here at Oklahoma State University and have talked to hundreds of people about the baseball card world. No interest. The last 6 months I have tried to help a man start up a local card shop. Within that 6 month span I did not meet one person my age who collected baseball cards (modern or vintage).

My ultimate question is who will I sell to in 40 or 50 years?

I think this post is spot on, and I have had many of the same thoughts in recent years. I just turned 40, and I wonder how much the lack of interest among younger people is the perception that it is a shady hobby. Obviously, I am not painting everyone with the same brush and there are many wonderful and ethical collectors and dealers out there.

But it does seem at times like everywhere you turn, someone is trying to perpetrate a scam or rip buyers off.

[Tanman7baseball]

All I know is when I was young I was sold a Mickey Mantle baseball. Turned out fake and turned me off from collecting for a long time. Ten years later I just had to start collecting again. And yet again, I ended up buying another fake autograph. This time it happened to be Jackie Robinson. Talked to a dealer for hours at the card show. Trusted him enough to buy an auto without a COA. Obviously I recognize my ignorance and lack of knowledge for being the sole reason I ended up buying it, but how is someone new to the hobby going to handle that? I don't collect autographs anymore because of that incident... I went to a card show and thought he was a trusted dealer. Honestly, I believe people most people my age are too lazy to look up and learn the overwhelming information needed to become a knowledgeable collector. Hence, why they don't care to collect.

[beachhead2]

Originally Posted by Bored5000

I think this post is spot on, and I have had many of the same thoughts in recent years. I just turned 40, and I wonder how much the lack of interest among younger people is the perception that it is a shady hobby. Obviously, I am not painting everyone with the same brush and there are many wonderful and ethical collectors and dealers out there.

But it does seem at times like everywhere you turn, someone is trying to perpetrate a scam or rip buyers off.

I'm 41 and your post resonates with me. While third-party-grading has its limitations, on some level that is what gave me the confidence to re-enter this hobby (especially for online transactions). I'm not sure that I ever had a good experience at a card shop. I grew up in south St. Louis and I remember card shops in the 80's-90's having no use for kid's small change. The operators were almost always surly a-holes. I do not bemoan their demise. I do love card shows. Between shows, web sites like this, and web auctions, I'm not sure I need anything else.

[BruceinGa]

Originally Posted by beachhead2

I'm 41 and your post resonates with me. While third-party-grading has its limitations, on some level that is what gave me the confidence to re-enter this hobby (especially for online transactions). I'm not sure that I ever had a good experience at a card shop.

+1
I'm 64, collected as a kid but gave them away when I lost interest. I picked it back up in 1987 when in training for work in Chicago and then Denver. I got some semi-star card from the 50's and 60's at great prices, giving them to my sons.
We went to a card show here in Marietta in 89 and would visit a shop in Chattanooga. The shop in Chattanooga always had 63 fleers for a good price.
In 1991 we got out of collecting and a couple of years ago my younger son tells me about graded cards. I like the idea. I visited a card shop locally and asked the owner what he thinks about third party graders and you would have thought I had insulted him. I believe that graded cards shows some dealers that they have been over grading for years. This shop owner still is over grading.
Sylbry, I'm going the National this year and I hope I don't find what you did at the Sun Times show. If I do, it will be my last show.

[CW]

By the way, the 2014 Topps pack I bought had a vintage insert in it...first one I have ever found in a pack. So there...

Thanks for sharing the story, Andy. It must be hard enough for these types of stores to survive, let alone when a douchebag like that is running one of them. You would hope that would be the exception, not the norm, but you hear so many stories about pro card dealers lacking in social and customer service skills.

[mattsey9]

Originally Posted by CW

Thanks for sharing the story, Andy. It must be hard enough for these types of stores to survive, let alone when a douchebag like that is running one of them. You would hope that would be the exception, not the norm, but you hear so many stories about pro card dealers lacking in social and customer service skills.

I'm sure we've all come across the "Comic Book Guy" store owner stereotype at least once in our hobby existence. I know that I have, and it's a turnoff. I just don't choose to patronize those tables when I go to a card show.

[Matthew H]

Originally Posted by Tanman7baseball

I remember a primarily vintage shop near Orange County, CA back about 10 years ago. It closed down (don't remember when) but it only carried extremely high-end cards and memorabilia. Literally I can only remember things being in the thousands... Since I was only 12 years old I obviously couldn't afford anything. I'm assuming it closed down because it just turned into a museum instead of a card shop. Sadly, I feel most shops are like this.

I have been thinking about our hobby a lot lately. I am in my early 20s and rarely do I find a vintage collector that is my age. Now this makes me think...what is the average age for a vintage baseball card collector? 45-55 years old or so?

I collect cards, because I love baseball. I have yet to sell anything I own, but I know there will come a time when I will. My question is, what is going to happen to the card market when the average 45-55 year old "kicks the bucket"? Will card prices plunge? I know about 2 other people who enjoy collecting vintage baseball cards that are my age. I am finishing up college here at Oklahoma State University and have talked to hundreds of people about the baseball card world. No interest. The last 6 months I have tried to help a man start up a local card shop. Within that 6 month span I did not meet one person my age who collected baseball cards (modern or vintage).

My ultimate question is who will I sell to in 40 or 50 years?

There have been many threads on this subject. In my opinion, there are many collectors in that age group partially because it's more likely an age group that could afford to spend what it takes. I'm 32 years old and would have been collecting much much longer if I could have. I used to go to card shows with my brothers and drool all over the showcases... Cards were so beautiful in their late 80s-raw glory

Most well-to-do adults collect stuff. Maybe not BB cards, but something... BB cards are americana and will always be collected IMO. So in 40-50 years, you will probably be selling to guys in the 45-55 age group, just like how it is now.


-

[Tanman7baseball]

Originally Posted by Matthew H

There have been many threads on this subject. In my opinion, there are many collectors in that age group partially because it's more likely an age group that could afford to spend what it takes. I'm 32 years old and would have been collecting much much longer if I could have. I used to go to card shows with my brothers and drool all over the showcases... Cards were so beautiful in their late 80s-raw glory

Most well-to-do adults collect stuff. Maybe not BB cards, but something... BB cards are americana and will always be collected IMO. So in 40-50 years, you will probably be selling to guys in the 45-55 age group, just like how it is now.


-

Good point. I know to collect these cards you need money. My age = not that much money yet. I will point out though that the collectors like yourself who drool over these cards when they were young, do not exist in nearly the amount they used to. Rarely do I see kids drooling over vintage cards at card shows. I was usually the only one back 10 years ago when I'd go to semi-annual Hollywood Park Casino card show. I'm just saying people in the 45-55 year old age group used to dream about having these cards as a kid so now that they can afford them they are buying them. Less kids drooling today means less older men buying tomorrow.

All in all, I'm not saying that the hobby will die but in my opinion the population of dedicated vintage collectors will decline dramatically. But for card prices they will surely rise... I hope.

[Matthew H]

Originally Posted by Tanman7baseball

Good point. I know to collect these cards you need money. My age = not that much money yet. I will point out though that the collectors like yourself who drool over these cards when they were young, do not exist in nearly the amount they used to. Rarely do I see kids drooling over vintage cards at card shows. I was usually the only one back 10 years ago when I'd go to semi-annual Hollywood Park Casino card show. I'm just saying people in the 45-55 year old age group used to dream about having these cards as a kid so now that they can afford them they are buying them. Less kids drooling today means less older men buying tomorrow.

All in all, I'm not saying that the hobby will die but in my opinion the population of dedicated vintage collectors will decline dramatically. But for card prices they will surely rise... I hope.

They're not drooling on the vintage because of all the shiny foil bat chip 1/1s and jersey swatches. But which ones do they covet the most? Babe Ruth, Ty Cobb, Lou Gehrig, etc. Eventually they are going to grow up and want career contemporary cards of these players. My opinion.

[Tanman7baseball]

Originally Posted by Matthew H

They're not drooling on the vintage because of all the shiny foil bat chip 1/1s and jersey swatches. But which ones do they covet the most? Babe Ruth, Ty Cobb, Lou Gehrig, etc. Eventually they are going to grow up and want career contemporary cards of these players. My opinion.

Touché. Once again, good point! For some reason I forgot the reason why I even knew anything about Pre-war players and it was because of SP Legendary Cuts. Bought so many boxes that I finally learned to recognize and tell you the significance of most Hall of Famers. But I will add the only reason I was privileged enough to buy these cards was because my grandpa funded my addiction...

But yes, point taken. The only reason I bought the new stuff when I was young was because it was the only way I could get a Mickey Mantle for under $20.

[ls7plus]

Most well-to-do adults collect stuff. Maybe not BB cards, but something... BB cards are americana and will always be collected IMO. So in 40-50 years, you will probably be selling to guys in the 45-55 age group, just like how it is now.


-

IMHO, this is exactly how it will work out--after all, look how many people collect Cobb, the Babe, Matty, Honus (if they can). None of these people were alive when these guys actually played. Baseball is Americana, and MLB does a terrific job of promoting their tradition. Plus, look at how many books are being written about the game, focused on times long since gone? If there wasn't a market for them, they would never be published.

By the way, the same fear has been prevalent in the coin market for decades, with people concerned that new, young blood was not entering their hobby, or that values had peaked. Meanwhile, really rare, significant have just been going up and up! People like to collect things related to their passions and/or youth, and that isn't going to change.

May your collecting days be filled with satisfaction,

Larry

[teetwoohsix]

Originally Posted by Tanman7baseball

I remember a primarily vintage shop near Orange County, CA back about 10 years ago. It closed down (don't remember when) but it only carried extremely high-end cards and memorabilia. Literally I can only remember things being in the thousands... Since I was only 12 years old I obviously couldn't afford anything. I'm assuming it closed down because it just turned into a museum instead of a card shop. Sadly, I feel most shops are like this.

I have been thinking about our hobby a lot lately. I am in my early 20s and rarely do I find a vintage collector that is my age. Now this makes me think...what is the average age for a vintage baseball card collector? 45-55 years old or so?

I collect cards, because I love baseball. I have yet to sell anything I own, but I know there will come a time when I will. My question is, what is going to happen to the card market when the average 45-55 year old "kicks the bucket"? Will card prices plunge? I know about 2 other people who enjoy collecting vintage baseball cards that are my age. I am finishing up college here at Oklahoma State University and have talked to hundreds of people about the baseball card world. No interest. The last 6 months I have tried to help a man start up a local card shop. Within that 6 month span I did not meet one person my age who collected baseball cards (modern or vintage).

My ultimate question is who will I sell to in 40 or 50 years?

I think Leon did a poll of the average age of collectors on the board, maybe he can pull it up. But, as far as the card prices plunging; I think this is where you have to ask yourself what is the most important thing- how much your cards may be worth in the future, or, how much you enjoy collecting regardless of what happens down the road? I'm sure we all hope our cards will retain at least what we put into them-but, you have to accept the fact that anything can happen. 20 years from now that $1,000.00 card may be worth $100.00,,,,,or that $1,000.00 card may be worth $2,000.00. I just enjoy trying to put together the set because it's thrilling to me, and whatever happens in the future happens. It's a little easier if you don't look at the cards as an investment

As far as the card shops, I've had mixed luck locally. A few years ago, the oldest cards you would see would be '50's cards. Now, they are carrying some pre war cards. I know one of the shop owners told me he has to sell on ebay to stay afloat (this was a few years ago). I would love to see a card shop 100% devoted to pre war cards !!! That would be awesome.

Sincerely, Clayton

[Tanman7baseball]

Originally Posted by teetwoohsix

I think Leon did a poll of the average age of collectors on the board, maybe he can pull it up. But, as far as the card prices plunging; I think this is where you have to ask yourself what is the most important thing- how much your cards may be worth in the future, or, how much you enjoy collecting regardless of what happens down the road? I'm sure we all hope our cards will retain at least what we put into them-but, you have to accept the fact that anything can happen. 20 years from now that $1,000.00 card may be worth $100.00,,,,,or that $1,000.00 card may be worth $2,000.00. I just enjoy trying to put together the set because it's thrilling to me, and whatever happens in the future happens. It's a little easier if you don't look at the cards as an investment

Sincerely, Clayton

I agree with you. I have never had any desire to sell. I am very passionate about collecting baseball cards and I love the history. I will say that since I have joined Net 54 I think I might start liquidating my 50s and 60s to start buying pre-war . I know that the big names will hold value, but to justify spending thousands of dollars on cards instead of putting into the stock market I like to think that if I have potential increased value in these cards.

Lastly, if there is ever a time in my life where I am in dire need of money I will sell my car and everything else I have before my cards...

Sorry guys for straying off the topic of B&M. But if anyone is in Oklahoma and you are itching to go to a card shop I would reccomend Al's Sports Cards. One small showcase filled with vintage but he will occasionally get in pre-war. Prices are usually high, but occasionally you will find some reasonable deals. He treats his customers with respect and will reward his loyal customers with better pricing. Probably why he is basically the only card shop left in Oklahoma...

[Exhibitman]

This is a different era; a shop owner cannot get away with ridiculous pricing. Information is easily found and prices are readily analyzed. I was at a show last year and had a potential buyer scoping out prices on his iphone to figure out what to buy from my table. A dealer cannot just slap a ridiculous tag on everything [especially mainstream cards] and hope that ignorance prevails.

The other thing I cannot understand is the unprofessional, short-sighted attitude. It just blows my mind how parochial the thinking can be. There is a local shop I go to for supplies and occasionally for cards [usually just a pack rip]. I and a couple of other guys are running a local card show in May [you've seen our banners here...I hope]. We are trying to revive face to face collecting, looking at starting a card collectors club for locals, and generally trying to revitalize the hobby as a personal and social thing. We are offering card shops cooperative advertising: carry our flyers for the show and we will put out your flyers for the store at our show. No costs involved, just an effort to build community. I explain all of that to the shop owner and he says no to the offer. Nevermind that the collecting base has declined markedly over the last 20 years and that part of it may be the loss of personal relationship-based hobby events, and that we are looking to get people involved locally and off their computers.

[tschock]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

The other thing I cannot understand is the unprofessional, short-sighted attitude. It just blows my mind how parochial the thinking can be. There is a local shop I go to for supplies and occasionally for cards [usually just a pack rip]. I and a couple of other guys are running a local card show in May [you've seen our banners here...I hope]. We are trying to revive face to face collecting, looking at starting a card collectors club for locals, and generally trying to revitalize the hobby as a personal and social thing. We are offering card shops cooperative advertising: carry our flyers for the show and we will put out your flyers for the store at our show. No costs involved, just an effort to build community. I explain all of that to the shop owner and he says no to the offer. Nevermind that the collecting base has declined markedly over the last 20 years and that part of it may be the loss of personal relationship-based hobby events, and that we are looking to get people involved locally and off their computers.

Adam,

I totally understand what you are saying here regarding the short-sighted attitude. In the past (pre-internet days) it may have made some sense for a store owner to view themselves as "the only game in town", but these days their "town" has grown quite a bit larger, essentially world-wide. People don't even have to LOOK in the B&M store anymore, let alone wonder/worry if they will even find what they are looking for.

This is very similar to the idea of "trading areas", either at shows or at B&M stores (another thread I just started). Something oddly enough, which stores that deal in Magic and other gaming cards promote (or at least, don't prohibit) with seemingly large success during their gaming nights.

[Jim65]

The closest store to me has nice vintage selection but ridiculously over- priced and hates to haggle, I honestly don't know how he stays in business.

[I Only Smoke 4 the Cards]

Originally Posted by Tanman7baseball

My question is, what is going to happen to the card market when the average 45-55 year old "kicks the bucket"? Will card prices plunge? I know about 2 other people who enjoy collecting vintage baseball cards that are my age. I am finishing up college here at Oklahoma State University and have talked to hundreds of people about the baseball card world. No interest. The last 6 months I have tried to help a man start up a local card shop. Within that 6 month span I did not meet one person my age who collected baseball cards (modern or vintage).

My ultimate question is who will I sell to in 40 or 50 years?

I think that overall the demand will fall as people forget who the more obscure players were. However, the big names will always draw a big dollar.

[sylbry]

Originally Posted by I Only Smoke 4 the Cards

I think that overall the demand will fall as people forget who the more obscure players were. However, the big names will always draw a big dollar.

I agree with this 100%. Collector's will always be interest in the big names/big cards. As far as high grade commons go... that is just throwing money away. Set collecting is a dying passion.

It is easy to gripe about card shops/owners but what about sellers at card shows. I attended my first card show in nearly two decades. Flew to Chicago for the Sun Times show. I found the cards I was looking for to have an asking price of 2 to 3 times current ebay auction prices.

Found the show to be nothing more than a live version of the overpriced BINs on ebay. I didn't buy anything and left after an hour. Needless to say I have no intention of ever going back to another show. What really irks me is passing on a few cards on ebay thinking I would spend money at the Sun Times show. After all, should be a better selection at the show. At that point I realized if the hobby was still card shops and shows I would not have re-entered it.

[billyb]

I am 65 years young and start collecting cards when there were penny packs and nickel packs had 6 cards. I would open the packs and move that top card very slowly to first view the team logo because that Yankee loge may be Mantle, or Red Sox could be Williams. However, my collection was thrown out by my parents while I was in the military, thousands of cards were gone.
I started collecting again when I viewed my first baseball card show in 1984, and made every garage sale and bought every collection I could until the 1990s when like everyone else, was turned off by the mass production.
I again have the feeling of collecting again since I found this site, it was like going to my first card show again. Only a member for several months, I have not made a decision of picking up where I left off or go vintage, but am learning a lot just by reading these threads everyday.
My point to this story, I believe the hobby will stay strong and the youth will mature and want to grab a piece of their past. Historical artifacts, like baseball cards, will always be that piece of their history, and draw them into the hobby. Many collectors do not even start until later in life, and so will they.
By the way, does anyone have any unopened penny packs? That's a stretch, but if there is any around, I am sure it would be here.

[jimhopkins82]

There was a card shop in the next city over that was open when I was a kid. I remember going there many times when I was 8-11 and the owner always treated me and any other kids as a nuisance/waste of time. I finally quit going to the shop and it closed eventually. Fast forward 15 years and I was living in that city and a card shop had opened. I had not collected cards in years but decided to go in and bought a few things. i would go in there 1-2 times a month and probably spend $50.00 a month or so. This went on for probably close to a year. I went in there for what turned out to be the last time and overheard another customer say the owner's first name. I had somehow never learned the owner's name. Anyway, it was the same name of the store that I went to as a kid. I asked the guy if the owner was the same one that had a shop in the late 1980 and early 1990s. He said it was. I remembered how the owner treated me as a kid and I walked out and have never returned. Jerk.

[toledo_mudhen]

Originally Posted by Tanman7baseball

My ultimate question is who will I sell to in 40 or 50 years?

Providing that :
1.) The country gets back on the right track
2.) The game has not been destroyed by over regulation and the urge to make too many rules (ie NFL)

Have recently had the pleasure of finding some quality vintage (semi) pieces for the Boss' 6 year old grandson who plays baseball - is a huge Brewers and Astros fan and has the collecting bug really bad (good?).

I picked up a high grade Yount Rookie for him which he loved. Same with the Biggio and Bagwell rookies. Quite rewarding to see the younger folks still get bitten by the bug.

40-50 years? I would venture to say that the vintage hobby will skyrocket. You do realize that there is a relatively limited supply of vintage - right?