T206 production/printing questions/comments

[teetwoohsix]

[QUOTE=Runscott;1109250]

Originally Posted by teetwoohsix

Clayton, perhaps they were in a hurry and didn't want to wait any longer than possible for the backs to dry.

Also, WST's are most common with Sweet Cap and Tolstoi, and I believe Polar Bear, but there are other brands where you never see WST's. Does it have something to do with the quality of the ink? Or could it be, as you theorized, that the backs were printed at a different place for some cards?

A good exercise would be to gather data on which backs (including factory,series,OP's) are most likely to have WST's. It might give us more clues about how/where they were printed.

Well, my theory about the WST's has many holes, and shouldn't be taken as anything but a theory with nothing to back it. It may make sense to me, but be completely off the mark. What may seem logical to me in our era may not have made sense in 1910,,,,,but I figure tossing out theories may get people's minds going and somehow it will help nail down some things.

It may be as simple as your first statement, they may have been in a rush and not so focused on a light transfer on the front.

Plus, there are cards that have a WST from a different brand on the front than is on the back-even from different factories. This is why I say-* don't take any of this as fact* because, it's not.

My main focus is to nail down what was being printed at the tobacco factories. I have a strong feeling that some of the packaging was being printed at the factories, and if I can find proof of that than it wouldn't seem too far fetched to find proff that the possibility that SOME of the backs COULD have been printed at the factories. The link in my last post was the closest I have found so far. And it's all just speculation for now. I'm spending a lot of time researching on the web,trying to find pertinant information.

Sincerely, Clayton

[teetwoohsix]

Hi Steve-

Just quoting part of your post here:

" That's very interesting. It would be interesting to know which factories.

As I read it it doesn't specifically say that the factories in NC that were producing the paper and doing the printing were the same factories that made the cigarettes and packed them.

Manufacturing is all about producing the object as cost effectively as possible.

So.....
Possible?
For the printing yes, possible. But unlikely. They would need a press, a camera or artist to make the plates, a separate room for each, and workers who knew how to run them. Possibly a cutter as well, although I think cutting locally wouldbe by far the most likely."

Yeah, I'm still trying to dig further for more specifics, but from what I've been finding, these tobacco factories where more advanced than the factories of low skilled workers of say, the 1850's. What I'm trying to really nail down is the fact that I believe some of the factories did actually print their own packaging as part of the whole process. I would like to find out where those Piedmont uncut pack sheets were discovered. Those, to me, seem like something that would be printed at the tobacco factory, as that write up stated (the article was about tobacco factories, although I don't know which ones.)

As we can see, a lot of information from the eighties turned out to be (unintentionally) wrong, or off mark. Discovering new information is not a bad thing, if it is accurate. I will never present this as fact, unless I'm 100% sure. But, I enjoy talking about these things more than I do talking about some of the other topics on the board lately (no offense meant to anyone).

And-I'm not trying to re-invent the wheel either

If I can find anything worthy, I will post more. Thanks to everyone who's jumped in the fray

Sincerely, Clayton

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by teetwoohsix

Plus, there are cards that have a WST from a different brand on the front than is on the back-even from different factories. This is why I say-* don't take any of this as fact* because, it's not.

...
Sincerely, Clayton

Those aren't WST's during production - those are from collectors.

[teetwoohsix]

Originally Posted by Runscott

Those aren't WST's during production - those are from collectors.

Not saying they are or aren't- but, I think a board member tried to do a WST as an experiment and had no luck (Steve?) using moisture and pressure. Maybe one could do it with chemicals, but why bother? There's no huge mark up for a WST.

Sincerely, Clayton

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by teetwoohsix

Not saying they are or aren't- but, I think a board member tried to do a WST as an experiment and had no luck (Steve?) using moisture and pressure. Maybe one could do it with chemicals, but why bother? There's no huge mark up for a WST.

Sincerely, Clayton

You waited 100 years for his experiment to end?

[teetwoohsix]

Originally Posted by Runscott

You waited 100 years for his experiment to end?

I don't think I'll be able to know what waiting 100 years for anything will feel like

But seriously, I can't say for certain how or when WST's happened- I'm not sure about the moist environment/ compression over years thing....I think if that were the case soaking cards would release some of the ink. But rather than focus on WST's, I'd like to really figure out exactly what was being printed at the tobacco factories. And, I'm more focused on finding out if the packaging (in some cases) were printed at the factories more than if the backs were. I'm ok with the ALC printing the fronts and the backs, as I can't find proof that they weren't.

But, I've found a link that I posted which states that tobacco factories were printing packaging material, and there's another post in this thread that refers to printing equiptment in the tobacco factories. I don't think this is too far fetched.

So,,,,,could that Piedmont sheet of uncut packs have been printed at the tobaccco factory?

Sincerely, Clayton

[steve B]

Originally Posted by teetwoohsix

Not saying they are or aren't- but, I think a board member tried to do a WST as an experiment and had no luck (Steve?) using moisture and pressure. Maybe one could do it with chemicals, but why bother? There's no huge mark up for a WST.

Sincerely, Clayton

Yep, that was me. Soaking wet card wrapped in paper and clamped in a vise for a couple weeks.

I wasn't expecting water to do anything. The inks are oil based so water really shouldn't have any effect whatsoever.

I'll eventually escalate to alcohol, then an oil based solvent. One of those should produce a result.

And if Alcohol works it means the inks were based on a non-petroleum oil like linseed oil or shellac. And those sometimes won't truly harden in over a century. See the stamp card proof that left an offset over a century after printing that I posted.

Pressure and vibration may do it, but I don't have the ability to test that. I could maybe build a machine, but that's got a bit of expense and effort. If someone wants to fund it I'd be open to discussing it.



I'd still like to see more specific info on which factories were printing what. It would be interesting as its own information.

Steev B