The "Exclusive 12" of the T205 set

[Tcards-Please]

Originally Posted by tedzan

In a previous thread on T205's, Andrew (T205 GB) posted his theory regarding the "400 DESIGNS" printed on the backs of the T205's......

"I have had a theory that the T80 and T42 series were part of the "T205's" or Gold Boarder's thus adding to the 400 designs. That would add 150 more designs to the 220+
cards in the t205 set. That would take the total to 370 without considering any variations possible for these sets that are unknown. Back designs are similar also, especially
the Sweet Caporal backs. Knowing that Mecca produced the T202 cards using the T205 designs as end panels in 1912 makes it possibly plausible since the T80 and 42's are
found with Mecca backs also and were produced just after. Kinda like the 1880's A&G Series cards."


This sounds like quite a plausible explanation for the "400 DESIGNS" to me.


TED Z

Ted,

Definitely sounds plausible, but have reservations about that, as the T80s weren't distributed with the same tobacco companies that had the T205s. I would think that if they were going to be part, they would have been available with the same advertisement as their counterpart. Especially if they were to be included with the 400 design count.

I'm a believer that there was supposed to be additional cards added during a later run. Nothing to prove that, just my opinion.

r/
Frank

[Wite3]

I still think that it is an unfinished series. I am no expert here and maybe someone who has a little better grasp of the tobacco history might be able to fill in some gaps.

We know t205s were most likely distributed at the end of 1911...one really large thing happened during this time. The ATC breakup happened in November of 1911.

This could have affected several things with relation to printing of the t205s.

Here are some ideas of mine...if anybody can confirm or deny, please help...

1st. When the ATC broke up the ATC consolidated its holdings in NC, VA, and KY. These are where the Hassan cards were printed and if I recall, Hassan was a brand that remained with the ATC.

2nd. Polar Bear was to become part of the Lorillard Tobacco company after the split.

I was wondering if the Polar Bear and Hassan ML cards were printed prior to the breakup (fronts) and issued and packed before the breakup was finalized. These being the last of the t205s issued. If the breakup never happened...would the 400 designs promise be upheld?

Just wondering what impact the breakup had on this issue that was clearly produced right in the middle of the ATC anti-trust suit.

Joshua

[marcdelpercio]

Originally Posted by T's please

Ted,

Definitely sounds plausible, but have reservations about that, as the T80s weren't distributed with the same tobacco companies that had the T205s. I would think that if they were going to be part, they would have been available with the same advertisement as their counterpart. Especially if they were to be included with the 400 design count.

I'm a believer that there was supposed to be additional cards added during a later run. Nothing to prove that, just my opinion.

r/
Frank

I would tend to agree more with this. It seems strange that they would have made something they considered to be a single set, but with completely different ad backs for the non-baseball cards. For example, the T58 (fish) cards, which were issued concurrently with the T206 set AND featured some of the same ad backs, were clearly not intended to be the same set, so I don't understand the logic of combining baseball and bird/military cards as a single series the following year. Also, the text "Base Ball Series 400 Subjects" as listed on certain ad-backs of T205s certainly makes it sound like there were 400 intended baseball subjects which just never happened for some reason.

[T205 GB]

Originally Posted by marcdelpercio

I would tend to agree more with this. It seems strange that they would have made something they considered to be a single set, but with completely different ad backs for the non-baseball cards. For example, the T58 (fish) cards, which were issued concurrently with the T206 set AND featured some of the same ad backs, were clearly not intended to be the same set, so I don't understand the logic of combining baseball and bird/military cards as a single series the following year. Also, the text "Base Ball Series 400 Subjects" as listed on certain ad-backs of T205s certainly makes it sound like there were 400 intended baseball subjects which just never happened for some reason.

Umm???? If you look at some set made they had baseball as well as others. Allen and Ginter and Mayo's are a prime example. The fact that baseball series is mention leads me to believe that it is only part of a series and not an inclusive baseball set. Some cards say "400 subjects" and others say "Baseball series 400 subjects" I guess its all up for interpretation.

Now we get the back issues. Who really cared what some foreign general or a bird's bio was. Much easier to use what was already made for backs and they were in very short print runs anyways. SC does show up the same on these backs though. Thats what lead me to this theory.

I was incorrect on some of what I wrote and during a conversation with Ted Z this was brought to light. I did not however go back and change it . Sorry about that guys.

[marcdelpercio]

Originally Posted by T205 GB

Umm???? If you look at some set made they had baseball as well as others. Allen and Ginter and Mayo's are a prime example. The fact that baseball series is mention leads me to believe that it is only part of a series and not an inclusive baseball set. Some cards say "400 subjects" and others say "Baseball series 400 subjects" I guess its all up for interpretation.

Well, first of all, a lot of those sets are either pre-ATC or non-ATC releases and from a different era, so I don't think that's necessarily as good a comparison as, for example, the contemporary T58 set I mentioned. Even if you do consider those sets though, that would further strengthen my point as the ad-backs (and fronts on Mayos since the backs are blank) were identical on those sets regardless of the front subject. In the case of T205s vs the military/bird series, the backs are not only an entirely different artistic format, but also feature entirely different brand ads.

[T205 GB]

None of us really know and are only speculating anyways. The fact zero cards have been found unfinished of unconfirmed players says a lot also with no documentation either. The military and bird series are the same time frame, same boarder design, and only lack bios. The bigger companies paid to be advertised on the baseball subjects while the smaller took the non important ones. Who knows really.

[Ease]

Some T42s and T205s backs side by side for comparison. Sorry no scanner

[marcdelpercio]

I would ask those who believe that these comprise one large 400 card series, why they think that the bird cards would state "Bird Series 1 to 100" on the backs? If the logic is that "Base Ball Series 400 Subjects" means that there are 400 TOTAL subjects among baseball/bird/military cards, wouldn't it follow that the bird series would state the same "400 subjects"? And the T80s also, for that matter?

Of course it's all just speculation, so I'm not saying that anybody is right or wrong here. All we have to go by is logic and circumstantial evidence. To me, it feels like these are all different releases, albeit with some obvious similarities.