The "Exclusive 12" of the T205 set

[Ease]

Ted, here's a piece on Collins autograph style.

[tedzan]

Thanks

The autograph on my card does not appear to be that far off from Jimmy's real autograph.

I guess, the next time I see Jimmy Spence, I will have him check it out.


Best reagards,

TED Z

[EvilKing00]

love hearing more info of the T205 set! Great posts

[tedzan]

Hey T205 guys

I do not think it is just a coincidence that this Minor League sub-set comprises of 12 subjects......a recurring factor (12) found in the T206 series structure.
It is logical to conclude that American Litho used the same printing presses and printed the T205's on the standard 19" x 24" size cardboard sheets of that
they printed the T206's (and, also T213's. T214's, T215's etc.).

Therefore, here is my hypothetical simulated sheet of 108 cards that would fill-out an 19" x 24" size sheet.

I would be very interested in your ideas pertaining to the printing of the T205 cards ?

T205 Minor Leaguers (12 subjects)














Thanks,

TED Z
.

[Ease]

I think its a good possibility Ted. I'd love to see some miscuts of the Minor leaguers, it would help us to piece together the sheet. This old thread was a good start. I'd love to see that miscut Bergen again too...hint hint Adam.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Ease

I think its a good possibility Ted. I'd love to see some miscuts of the Minor leaguers, it would help us to piece together the sheet. This old thread was a good start. I'd love to see that miscut Bergen again too...hint hint Adam.

Eric

Thanks for bringing up my 6+ year old thread....you certainly did some searching. Anyhow, here are a some of my mis-cut T205's that tell us
something about the printing of these specific cards.

Most interesting is the Eddie Collins card, since it obviously indicates that this Collins was at least DOUBLE-PRINTED horizontally on its sheet.

Whereas, the John Titus/Tony Smith mis-cut was printed as expected (as we know that these 2 subjects were in the same series (or sheet).












TED Z

[Cerberus]

As touched upon above, it has always been my feeling that the "Minor Leaguers" subset (if you will) was, in essence, a precursor of the "Topps Traded" set-- prepared late in the distribution process to account for some rookies who made it to the majors, as well as some of the players who were traded, subsequent to the initial issuance of the bulk of the set. Talk amongst yourselves.

[Leon]

Love that Titus card Ted.....thanks for sharing...

[obcmac]

It seems that every side to side miscut of the short prints has the same card next to it...so I wouldn't say that the Collins in a double print...but that this series or class was printed in rows. I'd love to see more examples or something to disprove this idea...or hear other thoughts on it.

Mac

Originally Posted by tedzan

Eric

Thanks for bringing up my 6+ year old thread....you certainly did some searching. Anyhow, here are a some of my mis-cut T205's that tell us
something about the printing of these specific cards.

Most interesting is the Eddie Collins card, since it obviously indicates that this Collins was at least DOUBLE-PRINTED horizontally on its sheet.

Whereas, the John Titus/Tony Smith mis-cut was printed as expected (as we know that these 2 subjects were in the same series (or sheet).


TED Z

[T205 GB]

Originally Posted by obcmac

It seems that every side to side miscut of the short prints has the same card next to it...so I wouldn't say that the Collins in a double print
Mac

Ummmmmmmmm

Collins, Wiltse, white, and so on are not SP's. Way to common compared to a true SP like Grant or Dahlen. JMO

[T205 GB]

Have we found any top bottom miscuts of the same card? I know that there are some showing same colors but it could be 5+ different cards. We have seen several side by sides. I was able to confirm Joss side by side on Pied 25 last yr at nationals.

[Ease]

Here's a Hoffman top bottom. I don't own it.

[T205 GB]

That's awesome Eric. So far only the SP's are found side by side and looks like the commons may have been printed top to bottom. Any thoughts on that??

[peterb69]

Is there any kind of color pattern on the sheets? For instance yellow/reds on one side and blue/greens on the other. In the Titus/Smith example, both cards are reddish/yellow.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by peterb69

Is there any kind of color pattern on the sheets? For instance yellow/reds on one side and blue/greens on the other. In the Titus/Smith example, both cards are reddish/yellow.

Peter

I would say there was a color pattern. And, I tried to illustrate this in my 12-card scan............






TED Z

[Ease]

Originally Posted by T205 GB

That's awesome Eric. So far only the SP's are found side by side and looks like the commons may have been printed top to bottom. Any thoughts on that??

It sure appears that way, it would be great to see more examples though. I wish we could tell which card is under that Collins mouth open that Ted has. Collins mouth open is a 6 back sp, found with less backs than a normal common (8-12), but more than others like Chase one ear (3). That's got to play into it somehow too, though idk how...every card, other than the ones with corrected text variations on the backs (Hobby, Gray, Wilhelm, etc) or fronts (Shean, etc) & MLers can be found with Piedmont 25. Maybe they ran off a bunch of Pied25 sheets to start, someone saw the errors & had them corrected for the next run which was Pied25, Hassan30, Cycle. More changes, then a run of 6 backs, Pied25, Pied42, Hassan30, Honest, AB, Polar Bear. Then a final run with all the backs. Does something like that sound viable at all?

[T205 GB]

Eric anything is possible. I have always been outside the box in saying that the fronts were printed first and then the backs. Also I do think that there were more than one back being printed at once.

It has kinda been proven that these so called SP's with more than 3 backs are nothing more than tougher cards that have been snatched up. When I discussed this before, specifically the K White, there was only a few available but still not unobtainable. Now there seems to be a flood of them available in multiple conditions. Maybe someone could find the SP list thread I made?

I will see if I can find my documents I wrote. I know they are blasphemy to some collectors but who cares. They have some info regarding availability IMO.

[EvilKing00]

Originally Posted by Ease

Here's a Hoffman top bottom. I don't own it.

awesome card!

[EvilKing00]

Was wondering why only the Hanford has the RED backgroumd by his name, any ideas?

[T205 GB]

Originally Posted by EvilKing00

Was wondering why only the Hanford has the RED backgroumd by his name, any ideas?

Good question. Could be just where he was printed on the sheet

[EvilKing00]

Just picked these up, never bought one before but had to have a few. Loved this old thread about the relationship between them the t205 and the birds.

image.jpg

[BobC]

Interesting thread I had not seen the first time around. In reading through it, I noted that some speculation was being made as to the significance of the terms "series" and "subjects" and how there was some commentary on the possibility that the "400 subjects" mentioned on T205 backs may have included more than just all baseball players. In other words, the theory of what many commonly think of as entirely different sets of cards, such as the T80 military personnel, were actually intended to be part of this "400 subject" master set. This theory was relying on and bolstered by the fact that the T80 cards, and other sets being released about the same time, were also using the same gold border printing and similar front designs as the T205s. I recollect at least one respondent in the thread mentioning that in no instance did there ever seem to be the term "series" applied to more than one kind of card at a time. In other words, a "series" referred to either all baseball players, or all birds, or all military personnel, etc. This was then inferred to possibly mean that when talking about the baseball player "series" of T205 cards and the 400 different "subjects" that is was very plausible that the baseball players were only a part of the 400 total expected subjects and that there was no intention to print additional baseball player T205 cards after those we already know of.

Well to throw something else into the fire to think about, it was already mentioned that most of the the T205 images (none of the 12 minor league players though) were also used on the end panels of the T202 Hassan Triple Folder cards issued in 1912, after or about the same time the T205 print run supposedly had ended. What no one had mentioned though is that some of those same T205 images were also used to create the S74 silks, which were issued as two distinct sets. The S74-1 "white" silks were all printed on the same, somewhat white, satin colored material and had a paper backing attached to them. These were supposedly first issued in 1910, which would mean they were precursors of the T205 and T202 cards. The S74-2 "colored" silks were printed on various satin colored materials, not just the single white color used for the S74-1 silks. What is interesting, and germane to this thread, is that on the S74-1 silks with the paper backing attached, the title printed on the backs clearly stated that these were from the "Baseball-Actress Series on Satin", and indeed, there were both baseball players and current period actresses issued in this release. What is also interesting is that if you look at one of the related actress silks, the design and images on the front are entirely different than the images of the ballplayers, and nothing at all like any other of the gold bordered card issues from around that time. And yet, the actresses and ballplayers are clearly listed as being part of the same "series" and set.

This goes directly against the earlier suppositions that a "series", as issued back then, was only meant to include one distinct type of image (ballplayer, bird, military person, etc.) and that even though such card sets were issued with these very different images/subject matter, the fact that they were created with such similar designs/gold borders was what was indicative of them being intended as all part of one entire set.

Still not a definitive answer, just more info to cloud the issue. The same people who were responsible for printing the T205s and T80s were also likely the same ones responsible for decisions regarding the S74s. I feel you have to consider this information in any theories being made regarding all this.

BobC