The T206 "Exclusive 12" of the 460-Only series

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Jantz

Hi Ted

These are the same 12 players I started a thread about back in May of 2010 as to being sheet mates or possibly making up a sheet due to the wet sheet transfers that appear consistently on them.

Since then, we now know these 12 players also have Red Hindu backs.

Can't be a coincidence, can it?

46 known players with a Sweet Caporal 350-460 f#42 back to date.

Minus the 12 Red Hindu players pictured in your first post and we come up with 34.

Interesting huh?

12 or 34, I'm not sure what the magic number is, but it sure makes for good research and fun. I have my own theories, but those are for another thread.

Great thread Ted!


Jantz

Thanx Jantz

Can this be a coincidence....how about chalking it up to...."great minds think alike"


Anyhow, I have been tracking these 12 subjects since I started on my AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 (AB 460) sub-set, about 7 years ago.







What struck me about these 12 - T206's was that they were, without question, much more available with AB 460 backs than any of the other 63 subjects with the AB 460 back.
Subsequently, I also noticed that these same T206 guys were more available with the red HINDU backs, than the other T206's with this scarce back. Furthermore, that these 12
were the only T206 red HINDU cards in the 460-Only series. So, all that and other factors regarding rare backs (noted in Post #1 here) suggested to me that they were "special".
Therefore, I refer to them as the "Exclusive 12".


Best regards,

TED Z

[tedzan]

While I do not accept POP report data as absolute, I think it is fair to say that the POP data is representive of the relative availability of certain cards with respect to other cards.

So, here is the POP report data regarding the "Exclusive 12" with red HINDU backs with respect to the 350/460 series cards with red HINDU backs.

The numbers of the Exclusive 12 subjects, when compared with the numbers of the 350/460 series subjects, overwhelmingly suggest that the Exclusive 12 cards were printed on
a separate sheet of their own.


The POP # = PSA + SGC

Exclusive 12

POP#.....Subject

12 ........ Crandall
6 .......... Devore
7 .......... Duffy
8 .......... Ford
8 .......... Gandil
7 .......... Geyer
13 ........ Hummel
10 ........ McGraw
7 .......... Pfeffer
7 .......... Sheckard
7 .......... Tannehill
10 ........ Wheat


350/460 Subjects

POP #.....Subjects (30 total)

7 .......... Baker **

4 .......... Davis, Snodgrass, Stahl

3 .......... Brown, Chase (blue), Cobb, Johnson, Kleinow

2 .......... Bender, Chance, Downey, Evers, Joss, CYoung

1 .......... Donlin, Doolan, Doyle, Griffith, Magee, Murphy, O'Leary, Seymour, Street, Sweeney

0 .......... Chase (dark cap), Elberfeld, Konetchy, Rucker, Willis


Note **....It appears that Baker was most likely a Double-Print on the sheet comprising of the 350/460 series cards.


TED Z

[tedzan]

For those who have not followed this thread, for better understanding, realize that these Exclusive 12 subjects are part of the 46 subjects in the 460-Only series of the T206 set.






Reiterating....while I do not accept POP report data as absolute, I think it is fair to say that the POP data is representive of the relative availability of certain cards with respect
to other cards.

Here is the POP report data regarding the Exclusive 12 with AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 backs with respect to the other subjects in the 460-Only series with AMERICAN BEAUTY 460
backs.

The POP #'s = PSA + SGC

Exclusive 12

POP #'s......Subject

18 ............ Crandall
19 ............ Devore
18 ............ Duffy
17 ............ Ford
15 ............ Gandil
10 ............ Geyer
15 ............ Hummel
22 ............ McGraw
9 ............. Pfeffer
20 ........... Sheckard
8 ............. Tannehill
13 ........... Wheat


460-Only Subjects

POP #'s.....Subjects (34 total)

5 ............. Latham, Needham, Schlei (portrait)

4 ............. Meyers

3 ............. Camnitz (arm on side), Frill, Lake, Marquard, Oldring, Seymour, Smith

2 ............. Bell, Bergen, Bridwell, Chase, Herzog, Merkle, Overall, Payne, Stovall, Tinker

1 ............. Abbaticchio, Ball, Bescher, Chance, Howell, McGraw (portrait), Schaefer, Schlei (bat)

0 ............. Camnitz (hds over head), Doyle, Murray, Schulte, Wiltse (portrait)


As is obvious from these numbers, this data is even more dramatic than the red HINDU numbers (Post #17) in demonstrating that the Exclusive 12 subjects were printed on a
separate sheet of their own. These #'s suggest that these 12 subjects were possibly Triple-Printed on a 36-card sheet. Furthermore, the remaining AMERICAN BEAUTY 460
cards in the 460-Only series were printed on a separate sheet of their own.

Any meaningful discussion on these findings is welcome.


TED Z

[tedzan]

Double post

[tedzan]

.





Reiterating....while I do not accept POP report data as absolute, I think it is fair to say that the POP data is representive of the relative availability of certain cards with respect
to other cards.

Here is the POP report data regarding the Exclusive 12 with SOVEREIGN 460 backs with respect to the other subjects in the 460-Only series with SOVEREIGN 460 backs.

The POP #'s = PSA + SGC

Exclusive 12

POP #'s......Subject

34 ............ Crandall
32 ............ Devore
49 ............ Duffy
58 ............ Ford
44 ............ Gandil
41 ............ Geyer
34 ............ Hummel
37 ............ McGraw
28 ............ Pfeffer
26 ............ Sheckard
37 ............ Tannehill
45 ............ Wheat


460-Only Subjects & Super Prints

POP #...............................Subjects (40 total)

40-card AVERAGE = 10.6 .....Abbaticchio, Ball, Bell, Bergen, Bridwell, Bescher, Camnitz (arm/side), Camnitz (hds over head), Chance (bat), Chance (portrait -yellow), Chase (blue),
Chase (dark cap), Chase (trophy), Cobb (red), Doyle, Evers (bat-Chicago), Frill, Herzog, Howell, Lake, Latham, Marquard, Mathewson (dark cap), McGraw (portrait), Merkle, Meyers
Murray, Needham, Oldring, Overall, Payne, Schaefer, Schlei (portrait), Schlei (bat), Schulte, Seymour, H. Smith, Stovall, Tinker, Wiltse



Again, these numbers further reinforce my theory that the Exclusive 12 guys were T206 subjects which were printed on a separate sheet of their own.
And, that these 12 were possibly Triple-Printed on a 36-card sheet....or, Quadruple-Printed on a 48-card sheet.


Any meaningful discussions on the Red HINDU, AMERICAN BEAUTY 460, or SOVEREIGN 460 findings here are welcome.


TED Z

[atx840]

42 Red Hindus from the SCP find and 6 from the 13 I posted earlier were graded by PSA.

Originally Posted by willworkforT206

Chris/Ted,

Total increase of 48, which appears to be the 42 from the find plus 6 additional submissions.

360/460 Series (+14 Total)
+1 Brown (Chicago)
+2 Davis (Davis on Front)
+1 Donlin (With Bat)
+2 Downey (Batting)
+2 Johnson (Hands At Chest)
+1 Joss (Pitching)
+1 Murphy (Batting)
+1 Seymor (Throwing)
+1 Snodgrass (Catching)
+1 Street (Catching)
+1 Sweeney (Fielding)

“Super Prints” (+5 Total)
+2 Chance (Yellow)
+1 Chase (Blue)
+2 Cobb (Red)

460 Series (+29 Total)
+4 Crandall (With Cap)
+2 Devore
+1 Duffy
+3 Ford
+2 Gandil
+4 Geyer
+3 Hummel
+3 McGraw (Glove Hip)
+2 Pfeffer
+1 Tannehill
+4 Wheat

Hope this helps.

Steve

[tedzan]

Chris

Thanks for posting the info on those two red HINDU finds.


TED Z

[atx840]

Hey Ted,

My understanding of why these twelve are seen more often then others with these backs is that the group of twelve is broken down into smaller groups that are likely used in combination with a base group of 28 players across a 34 card sheet. Two rows of seventeen.

It is also likely that these twelve could have been printed multiple times across a sheet taking up more then one space. Giving a higher ratio compared to the base 28 group.

Take Group 1 below and split it across two 14 slot rows A&B and combine them with any of the Group 2, 3 & 4 players. For every unique 14A card there are 2 Duffy's.

14A + Devore + Duffy + Ford
14A + Devore + Duffy + Ford
14A + Devore + Duffy + Ford
14A + Devore + Duffy + Ford
14B + Devore + Duffy + Ford
14B + Devore + Duffy + Ford
14B + Devore + Duffy + Ford
14B + Devore + Duffy + Ford

For Red Hindu T206resource has a possibility of 46 combinations for this back. They can be broken down into the following groups of 28+12+6. The base 28 group can then be combined with any of the 6 base groups in any combination to form a 34 player sheet.

If the SuperPrints pop reports are lower with these backs it's possible they were used less frequently with the base 28 cards then your Exclusive 12.

From what I can tell, the entire 460 series backs can be broken down to multiple 28 base groups to combine with these three 6 base groups to form a 34 card sheet. Some backs use the Exclusive 12, some only use the SuperPrints (BL460) and some use both. Some use this base 28 or one of the other 28 groups.

Red Hindu groupings.

[teetwoohsix]

Originally Posted by atx840

Hey Ted,

My understanding of why these twelve are seen more often then others with these backs is that the group of twelve is broken down into smaller groups that are likely used in combination with a base group of 28 players across a 34 card sheet. Two rows of seventeen.

It is also likely that these twelve could have been printed multiple times across a sheet taking up more then one space. Giving a higher ratio compared to the base 28 group.

Take Group 1 below and split it across two 14 slot rows A&B and combine them with any of the Group 2, 3 & 4 players. For every unique 14A card there are 2 Duffy's.

14A + Devore + Duffy + Ford
14A + Devore + Duffy + Ford
14A + Devore + Duffy + Ford
14A + Devore + Duffy + Ford
14B + Devore + Duffy + Ford
14B + Devore + Duffy + Ford
14B + Devore + Duffy + Ford
14B + Devore + Duffy + Ford

For Red Hindu T206resource has a possibility of 46 combinations for this back. They can be broken down into the following groups of 28+12+6. The base 28 group can then be combined with any of the 6 base groups in any combination to form a 34 player sheet.

If the SuperPrints pop reports are lower with these backs it's possible they were used less frequently with the base 28 cards then your Exclusive 12.

From what I can tell, the entire 460 series backs can be broken down to multiple 28 base groups to combine with these three 6 base groups to form a 34 card sheet. Some backs use the Exclusive 12, some only use the SuperPrints (BL460) and some use both. Some use this base 28 or one of the other 28 groups.

Red Hindu groupings.

Amazing !! This post makes it all come together for me. Thank you.

Sincerely, Clayton

[atx840]

The 460 series when viewed in these groups makes sense for the most part. A good questions raised already is how do we get 4x more Exclusive 12s in this. I am trying to wrap my head around the combinations to give the %s Ted has noted.

Ted, do you see any of the 28 I listed as being extra low pop?

I can provide examples for some of the more complicated backs, which have multiple prints to consider.

Again, I am still wrapping my head around this.

[tedzan]

Chris

Impressive graphic; however, the premise is too convoluted. For starters, it does not explain why the Exclusive 12 are LENOX no-prints.....or, PIEDMONT 460/42 no-prints.
Or, why the Exclusive 12 are the only SWEET CAP 460/42 subjects printed from the 460-only series. I'd go on with more arguments to support my Exclusive 12 theory, but
it has become tedious trying to convince you (and others) of my theory.

Pardon me for reiterated this for the umpteenth time....the printing press track (or width) of 18" (or 19") was the standard machinery that American Lithographic operated
to print their smaller (or medium) size jobs. It conformed with the standard size (18" x 24") paper (or cardboard) sheets of that era.

While we have no card strips of T206's or T205's to confirm this....there, are 11 (or 12) per row card strips of E-cards that have been found. The printing press machinery
used to print E-cards (E91, etc.) of that era (1908-1912) was very similar as those used to print the T-cards.

You can continue to dig up such convoluted concepts to justify your "magic 34" argument. But, your "17-cards" per row premise is incongruent with any lithographic press
size known of that time period for printing T-cards or E-cards whose dimensions were approx. 1 7/16" x 2 5/8".


Best regards, and if we ever dig up an old T206 sheet that supports your contention of "17-cards" per row (as opposed to my "12-cards" per row theory)....I will fly up to
Canada and buy you dinner at your favorite expensive restaurant.


TED Z

[atx840]

Ill take that bet Ted.

Let me share some more data which is till, just theoretical but please check it out and consider it as I have with your 12 sheet theory. I can not explain every situation but a good majority of the 460 series breaks down into 34 possible groupings.

I can also show why certain cards are excluded form certain backs. You need to see it holistically. Lenox is simple,

Here is BL460.



Here is P460F25 in two prints, the second run I believe swapped out Ames for Dougherty (just my theory based on looking across all 460 brands).

Each 28 group can combine with the 6 subgroup as well as the 21 subgroup combined with the 13 subgroup = 34