Simulated T206 sheets....check them out....plus, new find of 350/460 series DRUM card

[steve B]

Originally Posted by teetwoohsix

Ted-

I see. So you're saying there's no double (two different names) cards of THESE cards you've posted as a simulated sheet above.

Here's Jantz's thread I believe you are referencing (awesome thread BTW Jantz): http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...6%2C+two+names

But, here's where I'm confused: Confirmed cards with two different names~ all of these are Piedmont 150:

Bradley-Bender
Killian (pitching)-Chance
Lindaman-Bresnahan
Spade-Cicotte
Lundgren(Cubs)-Doolin
Bender(port)-Delahanty(Wash)
M.Brown(port)-Magee

All of the above cards are from Print Group 1:

http://t206resource.com/Print%20Grou...Checklist.html


I know you are going to say these are not ONLY 150 subjects~ but they are 150 subjects. So, I'm not following still.....

As far as the Wagner strip,,,,so you don't think they printed a sheet out and cut the strip from that? I'm not saying it was a regular production sheet, but just figuring it would be printed on a sheet "the size" of a regular production sheet. I'm trying to follow the 19 inch wide track thing, and understand how if they didn't use the regular presses to do this strip, what did they use?

Sincerely, Clayton

The ones Ted showed are a subset of print group 1. None of them are also found with any 350 back or with factory 649 (Except for Plank, and If I recall it right all the 350 Planks are hand cut?)

Schulte front view should be included. There is a P350 that just turned up but I believe it's not a normal production card, most likely a wrongback(150 series sheet given a 350 back, either using up leftovers or as a makeready sheet that got cut and distributed.)

Magie should also be included. (Since at least one master and plate would have had to be reworked to fix Magie I consider Magie and Magee to be different cards Magie 150 only Magee 150/350)


Leaving out Plank and including Schulte, Wagner and Magie This group breaks into two groups, one slightly tougher than the other. With three exception Brown Cubs which isn't all that tough, and Wagner and Magie which are.

My theory had been that 5 of them had been on a sheet with Wagner, the other 5 on a sheet with Magie, and that both sheets had been withdrawn and the plates redone either partly or completely with Brown replacing both Wagner and Magie.

The other outlier card is Powers. No 350 backs, but he is found with factory 649. That one is interesting. Either they handled the sheets oddly to print the 649 overprints or Powers was on more than one sheet. Figuring that out would require looking at the tiny front differences to see if some are only found with 649 and some only with 150 backs. That's a whole project on its own.

Keep in mind that the sheet layout/size could have easily been different for 150 and 350 The 150s were a somewhat more limited release, 4-5 brands. While 350 had all 16. Printing larger sheets or sheets with more subjects to a sheet would have made more sense for 350.

For that reason I think it makes sense to look at sheet layouts by series or if you must, by print group.

Some of the cards on Teds sheet show the P150 plate scratches, so they must have been printed well into the later part of 150 printings.

One attraction of Teds layout is that it would explain a number of things. In production, extracting the Wagners, Planks and Magies would have been simply a matter of cutting off the edge if it was on the edge and discarding it, or cutting into strips and discarding the appropriate strip. Cutting into strips isn't good practice, because handling the long strips in the cutter makes diamond cuts much more likely.

Another issue is the scrap of the log from the packing plant clearly stating "other than philadelphia area" Which probably means that there was a different sheet to produce the mix of cards intended for at the very least the Philadelphia area. Sorting stuff by player and where each was intended to go just doesn't work for packing/distribution there's just way too much manual labor and thought invloved unless there's a major difference in the cards themselves (Like the red bordered paralells sold in Topps product exclusively in Target. Simple to add in while packaging their order since the look is very different.)

All in all a highly complex problem.

Steve B

[tedzan]

Here's an example of a possible Double-Printed 48-subject arrangement printed on a 19' X 24" sheet. Leaving a 1 1/2 inch border (top & bottom) if the printed cards were centered
on the sheet.








TED Z

[tedzan]

Another example of a possible 108-card sheet printed during the 150 Series press runs. These 34 subjects and two Double-Prints ** were printed with PIEDMONT 150....
SOVEREIGN 150....SWEET CAPORAL 150 [Factory's #25, #30 & #649 (overprint)]....and, Brown HINDU backs.


Johnson .................................................. ......Possible DOUBLE-PRINTS................................................. Davis



DOUBLE-PRINTS.................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ...... Powers .................. Matty (Possible DOUBLE-PRINT)


** Double-Prints (D-P)
My selection of Powers, and the 2nd D-P (either Davis, Matty, or Johnson) is based NOT on POP reports....but, two T206 surveys totalling 16,000 cards, which I have.


TED Z

[cfc1909]

when the SC 649 set and the southern brown Hindu sets subjects were chosen, there were plenty other subjects available if 36 were needed. No reason to double print 2 subjects.



As for a survey of 16,000 t206s, that is a drop in a 55 gallon bucket of what is out there . In 1998 there were a half million t206s surveyed by AM and we have done at least that many more since.

Sweet Cap 649 subjects and southern brown Hindu subjects were printed in equal numbers.

[teetwoohsix]

Great cards Ted !!

Here's what I don't get about these two simulated sheets you just posted.
The only chance for a possible "double name card" (same name top and bottom) is the Powers and Matty cards. The double name/same name shows up enough to see that they must have (like in Chris Browne's simulated sheet) been in columns of likely 3 of the same player down (in order to find these double name/same name).

Then, you have the double name/different name top, which also makes sense if you look at Chris's simulated sheet. The sheets you posted could give you a ton of double name/different name at top (which are way less common to find) and basically 2 possibilities for a double name/ same name (which are way more common).

How does this make sense, when factoring in these double named cards (which I think are a key factor in figuring out a sheet layout)?

Thanks-

Sincerely, Clayton

[tedzan]

Clayton

The simulated sheet I posted (post #41) consists of 12 subjects in the 150-ONLY Series.

The simulated sheet I posted (post #60) consists of 34 subjects in the 150/350 Series.

The simulated sheet I posted (post #59) consists of 48 subjects in the 350 Series.

This is your 2nd post on this thread in which your comments indicate that you have the T206 series confused.

The traditional classification (by Bill Heitman, Scot Reader, and long-time T206 collectors) is as follows......

150-only series

150/350 series

350-only series

350/460 series

460-only series

Southern Leaguer series

Demmitt and O'Hara (St. Louis variations)

Joe Doyle N.Y. Nat'l and Sherry Magie (error)


Any other manner of classifying these series is subject to confusion.


TED Z

[teetwoohsix]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Clayton

The simulated sheet I posted (post #41) consists of 12 subjects in the 150-ONLY Series.

The simulated sheet I posted (post #60) consists of 34 subjects in the 150/350 Series.

The simulated sheet I posted (post #59) consists of 48 subjects in the 350 Series.

This is your 2nd post on this thread in which your comments indicate that you have the T206 series confused.

The traditional classification (by Bill Heitman, Scot Reader, and long-time T206 collectors) is as follows......

150-only series

150/350 series

350-only series

350/460 series

460-only series

Southern Leaguer series

Demmitt and O'Hara (St. Louis variations)

Joe Doyle N.Y. Nat'l and Sherry Magie (error)


Any other manner of classifying these series is subject to confusion.


TED Z

Ted- I am not confused about the T206 series one bit. I am confused about your sheet layouts. You also dodged my questions. Rather than explain what series the players consist of, I was hoping you would adress my last post with something that makes sense. Please re-read my last post, it's not that confusing.

Thanks-

Sincerely, Clayton