Which Robin Roberts card is rarer?

[Volod]

Just wondering - how were the Lummis cards issued? Were they attached to the product? Sold via mail-in request? The 1951 MLAS card was only obtained by special request made to Topps. That alone, in my view, would indicate that the Topps card is probably far rarer.
I have to wonder how a hobbyist in 1951 would even have become aware that the 11-card set of MLAS contained three non-issued rarities. Probably not by going into a mom&pop store and buying 100 wax packs and finding dozens of the eight commons and none of the other three. It was only later that highly knowledgable hobby vets received inside information about the Roberts, Konstanty and Stanky cards, and were able to request them from Topps. At least, that has been my understanding.

[toppcat]

Originally Posted by Volod

Just wondering - how were the Lummis cards issued? Were they attached to the product? Sold via mail-in request? The 1951 MLAS card was only obtained by special request made to Topps. That alone, in my view, would indicate that the Topps card is probably far rarer.
I have to wonder how a hobbyist in 1951 would even have become aware that the 11-card set of MLAS contained three non-issued rarities. Probably not by going into a mom&pop store and buying 100 wax packs and finding dozens of the eight commons and none of the other three. It was only later that highly knowledgable hobby vets received inside information about the Roberts, Konstanty and Stanky cards, and were able to request them from Topps. At least, that has been my understanding.

I think it was highlighted in Card Collectors Bulletin as Woody Gelman was very active in the hobby then and had just started working at Topps in 1951-52, although his art agency had worked on the account for a couple of years prior. Woody is the man who rescued the three MLAS short prints.

[sflayank]

not even close current all star roberts many many times rarer

[ALR-bishop]

Bob--It's not sick, just you...and me... because we don't have one.

[Volod]

Originally Posted by toppcat

I think it was highlighted in Card Collectors Bulletin as Woody Gelman was very active in the hobby then and had just started working at Topps in 1951-52, although his art agency had worked on the account for a couple of years prior. Woody is the man who rescued the three MLAS short prints.

Thanks for the memory upgrade, Dave. Do you have access to any Gelman interviews or recollections in this specific vein? It seems that the Shorins just decided to trash the short prints, or some such. I had imagined that the three cards sat in a file drawer at Topps for a few years so that any requests coming in for them could be filled, but if, as you say, Gelman "rescued" them, what from, and to what extent?

[toppcat]

Originally Posted by Volod

Thanks for the memory upgrade, Dave. Do you have access to any Gelman interviews or recollections in this specific vein? It seems that the Shorins just decided to trash the short prints, or some such. I had imagined that the three cards sat in a file drawer at Topps for a few years so that any requests coming in for them could be filled, but if, as you say, Gelman "rescued" them, what from, and to what extent?

I have to dig out the reference-it may have been from Len Brown or Jay Lynch. Will post it when I track it down after de-stratifying my desk. I do believe there were legal reasons those three were pulled but there is some (thin) evidence they may have been printed separately from the other 8 cards in the set.

[Volod]

Dave - Thanks. I look forward to your information, if you can find it.

[toppcat]

OK, I found part of the reference on the 3 MLAS short-prints. It's from an SCD article on 10/13/2000 by Tom Mortenson and it references Woody saving a few specimens of the short prints. The rest of the article is an interview with Woody's son Richard so it's contextual only.

I have a later reference still that I have to find that is more specific. The hunt continues...

[Volod]

Originally Posted by toppcat

OK, I found part of the reference on the 3 MLAS short-prints. It's from an SCD article on 10/13/2000 by Tom Mortenson and it references Woody saving a few specimens of the short prints. The rest of the article is an interview with Woody's son Richard so it's contextual only.

I have a later reference still that I have to find that is more specific. The hunt continues...

Any chance you could post the stuff here, once you get it all together?

[philliesphan]

Originally Posted by Volod

Just wondering - how were the Lummis cards issued? Were they attached to the product? Sold via mail-in request? The 1951 MLAS card was only obtained by special request made to Topps. That alone, in my view, would indicate that the Topps card is probably far rarer.
I have to wonder how a hobbyist in 1951 would even have become aware that the 11-card set of MLAS contained three non-issued rarities. Probably not by going into a mom&pop store and buying 100 wax packs and finding dozens of the eight commons and none of the other three. It was only later that highly knowledgable hobby vets received inside information about the Roberts, Konstanty and Stanky cards, and were able to request them from Topps. At least, that has been my understanding.

Steve - To me, this is the crux of the argument. No one knows much, at all, about the Lummis cards. Their stickered-counterparts in Sealtest are widely available...but the Lummis cards seem to be exceptionally rare. As I mentioned earlier, I've heard of less than a dozen examples from the entire set trading hands over the last decade. I'm sure some trade privately, but you can't find Lummis cards readily available anywhere -- add in a HOF rookie card to boot, for both Ashburn and Roberts, and it is a significant rarity.

I do think the MLAS is the rarer of the two, but I also tend to believe there's less than ten examples of Roberts / Ashburn in the hobby-

Marc