Auction Houses and blind bidding

[dodgerfanjohn]

Originally Posted by yankeeno7

An opinion doesnt mean squat unless you have a solution to go with it.

This most definitely isn't true. Talk about incredible leaps in logic.

What is true is that most of the posts in this thread carry an hyper defensive tone. That is often a result of postings that hit too close to home.

Interesting thread.

[yankeeno7]

It may not be true in all cases but it fits here. But the fact is, what is an opinion without solution? It's called complaining or whining.

People can have their opinions and express them and that is always encouraged. Maybe they are looking for solutions. But when you have so much to say about it over and over again and offer nothing, its beating that dead horse and that doesnt appear to be so encouraged.

Originally Posted by dodgerfanjohn

This most definitely isn't true. Talk about incredible leaps in logic.

What is true is that most of the posts in this thread carry an hyper defensive tone. That is often a result of postings that hit too close to home.

Interesting thread.

Well said John.

[smtjoy]

Thanks for posting the Munson cards as an example and looking at those they do look very suspect and I would refrain from bidding when I see things like that.

As I stated above, shilling and other crap happens everywhere but imo much more so on ebay. He is an example of a card I am currently watching that the pattern brings up a lot of red flags. Heck the card is for sale the 3rd time in less than 30 days, check out the bidders on the past auctions, also that many bidders with less than 100 feedback is more red flags, current bidding on new listing even more red flags, etc. You can find this daily on ebay and if not for services like VCP that can help point out these listing, I would be getting burned like I did in the past. I just wonder how many other collectors out there are getting taken in deals sales like this.

Here you go-
1911 Sporting Life TY COBB M116 (Pastel)

Current listing-
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1910-11-Spor...item1c2fb6c057

VCP-


Link to last two sales-
1/24/13 Sale-
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1910-11-Spor...p2047675.l2557

1/13/13 Sale-
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1910-11-Spor...p2047675.l2557

Funny how all three auctions have the exact same titles.....

Interested to see what others think about this as its not clear cut shilling but imo looks more like possible manipulation of pricing/value.

[Matthew H]

Paul,

When you consign something to an auction house they promote it, take it to shows and mail out catalogs. The prospective buyer sometimes has months to prepare. Listing on eBay is like dropping a needle in a haystack and hoping someone notices it within 7 days. Whoever notices it also needs to have the cash ready. You can't really compare the two as a level playing field.

[Jaybird]

Originally Posted by Matthew H

Paul,

When you consign something to an auction house they promote it, take it to shows and mail out catalogs. The prospective buyer sometimes has months to prepare. Listing on eBay is like dropping a needle in a haystack and hoping someone notices it within 7 days. Whoever notices it also needs to have the cash ready. You can't really compare the two as a level playing field.

agreed. What if I'm a big whale on a particular item and I'm on vacation for a week. If it was an auction, I would have received the catalog and had time to look at the preview. Discussions on message boards would have taken place and in the end I would know exactly when it was ending (date and time). Hard to compare that to someone listing an item on ebay on Tuesday at 8PM amongst their garden tools and tube socks.

[sb1]

As a side note the state of New York has begun the process to require that SELLERS be identified in auctions. Now this stems from art auctions and may or may not have any bearing on smaller auctions, but I am willing to bet if they infact enact it, ALL auctions in that state will be required to list the indentity of who the seller is. That would be a major headache for the auction lot with hundreds or thousands of lots, many by different consignors.

Did anyone else hear of this?

Originally Posted by sb1

As a side note the state of New York has begun the process to require that SELLERS be identified in auctions. Now this stems from art auctions and may or may not have any bearing on smaller auctions, but I am willing to bet if they infact enact it, ALL auctions in that state will be required to list the indentity of who the seller is. That would be a major headache for the auction lot with hundreds or thousands of lots, many by different consignors.

Did anyone else hear of this?

Very interesting side note:

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/04/ar...mous.html?_r=0

I think it would be great if seller names had to be listed with their items. Just like buyers names should be listed with their bids.

Here's hoping the ruling is upheld!

[Wymers Auction]

Originally Posted by Matthew H

Paul,

When you consign something to an auction house they promote it, take it to shows and mail out catalogs. The prospective buyer sometimes has months to prepare. Listing on eBay is like dropping a needle in a haystack and hoping someone notices it within 7 days. Whoever notices it also needs to have the cash ready. You can't really compare the two as a level playing field.

Well stated Matthew. Millions of bidders, but your auction only gets 100 views.

[Runscott]

And it is often a different set of bidders - ebayers frequently lack knowledge about more esoteric items. Example:

Item I purchased from Hunt: Hunt - Ted Williams pool cue

The ebay sell last night: Ebay - Ted Williams pool cue

[Mrvintage]

I am still trying to figure out why this issue is so important to Paul? There are probably only a couple of cards from the 78 and 79 topps baseball sets that are even worth sending to an AH and those are the only cards he collects anyways. I just don't get it......

[Matthew H]

Originally Posted by Runscott

And it is often a different set of bidders - ebayers frequently lack knowledge about more esoteric items. Example:

Item I purchased from Hunt: Hunt - Ted Williams pool cue

The ebay sell last night: Ebay - Ted Williams pool cue

That's a bummer Scott. Hunt's is kind of a wild card though... You know the rules over there.

[smtjoy]

Originally Posted by smtjoy

Thanks for posting the Munson cards as an example and looking at those they do look very suspect and I would refrain from bidding when I see things like that.

As I stated above, shilling and other crap happens everywhere but imo much more so on ebay. He is an example of a card I am currently watching that the pattern brings up a lot of red flags. Heck the card is for sale the 3rd time in less than 30 days, check out the bidders on the past auctions, also that many bidders with less than 100 feedback is more red flags, current bidding on new listing even more red flags, etc. You can find this daily on ebay and if not for services like VCP that can help point out these listing, I would be getting burned like I did in the past. I just wonder how many other collectors out there are getting taken in deals sales like this.

Here you go-
1911 Sporting Life TY COBB M116 (Pastel)

Current listing-
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1910-11-Spor...item1c2fb6c057

VCP-


Link to last two sales-
1/24/13 Sale-
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1910-11-Spor...p2047675.l2557

1/13/13 Sale-
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1910-11-Spor...p2047675.l2557

Funny how all three auctions have the exact same titles.....

Interested to see what others think about this as its not clear cut shilling but imo looks more like possible manipulation of pricing/value.

Funny so the auction above ended not reaching the reserve with this winner below, lol and already listed again-

4***p( 0 )
30-Day Summary
Total bids: 31
Items bid on: 15
Bid activity (%) with this seller: 87%
Bid retractions: 0
Bid retractions (6 months): 0

Originally Posted by smtjoy

Funny so the auction above ended not reaching the reserve with this winner below, lol and already listed again-

4***p( 0 )
30-Day Summary
Total bids: 31
Items bid on: 15
Bid activity (%) with this seller: 87%
Bid retractions: 0
Bid retractions (6 months): 0

That's messed up, and thanks to what I call "semi-transparency", ebay allows you to see this, and at least have some info to go on.

With the AHs this can be happening anywhere, and you'd have no idea, and no recourse.

And here's ANOTHER example for ya:



Originally bought for $20,100.29 from Mile High Card Co on 10/25/12 .

Sold for $16,019.44 on ebay today (2/8/13) minus $1,121.36 (7% for PWCC) = $14,898.08 for a net of:

-$5,202.21

[OTWCards]

Originally Posted by bubblebathgirl

And here's ANOTHER example for ya:



Originally bought for $20,100.29 from Mile High Card Co on 10/25/12 .

Sold for $16,019.44 on ebay today (2/8/13) minus $1,121.36 (7% for PWCC) = $14,898.08 for a net of:

-$5,202.21

Obviously making it up on volume... The new business model: buy high, sell low, but look good!

[Bored5000]

Originally Posted by bubblebathgirl

That's messed up, and thanks to what I call "semi-transparency", ebay allows you to see this, and at least have some info to go on.

With the AHs this can be happening anywhere, and you'd have no idea, and no recourse.

Let me state upfront that I have never sold anything on eBay, but I would think the only people you would "catch" shilling their own auctions would be the very stupid or the very lazy. I mean, an account with "0" or "1" feedback or nearly 100 percent bidding pattern with one seller is bound to set off red flags.

Seems like it would be obvious and very easy to cover your tracks when shilling on eBay simply by buying and bidding on other cards besides your own.

[cobblove]

Im only posting this bc people were saying they photo shop the cards.
I saw this card and didnt know what was going on with the boarder.
Is it just the scan of was this a white out type of thing??
Very odd looking. Im talking about the top boarder towards the right.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1957-Topps-L...p2047675.l2557

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by Bored5000

Let me state upfront that I have never sold anything on eBay, but I would think the only people you would "catch" shilling their own auctions would be the very stupid or the very lazy. I mean, an account with "0" or "1" feedback or nearly 100 percent bidding pattern with one seller is bound to set off red flags.

Seems like it would be obvious and very easy to cover your tracks when shilling on eBay simply by buying and bidding on other cards besides your own.

Ebay allows it to simply be part of a seller's business model. Add it to that the fact that people right here on this board think it's perfectly okay, and there's really zero chance of stopping it. Some sellers have been so brazen as to send out spam emails (I received one), stating that they run only 99 cent starting bid auctions, and insinuating that those who use the BIN store model are somehow dishonest, while in fact, the BIN store sellers are the ONLY sellers who have no reason whatsoever to shill.

[Fred]

Originally Posted by Bored5000

Let me state upfront that I have never sold anything on eBay, but I would think the only people you would "catch" shilling their own auctions would be the very stupid or the very lazy. I mean, an account with "0" or "1" feedback or nearly 100 percent bidding pattern with one seller is bound to set off red flags.

Seems like it would be obvious and very easy to cover your tracks when shilling on eBay simply by buying and bidding on other cards besides your own.

Unfortunately, there is the "friends" with high feedback buddy system going on also. I've had "friends" ask me to "bump" up a bid on an auction. I've only done it a couple of times because I figured if I won it at the price that was bid I could turn around and sell it for a profit, otherwise I've told these "friends" that I wouldn't do it. My ebay feedback is clean (500+) and the positive feedbacks (no negs, neutrals) makes it look even better. I've also have had "friends" ask me to bump up their bids in major auction house auctions. Same rule applies, if it looks like I could turn a tidy profit at the bid then I'd do it, otherwise, no way.

My guess is there are people that will give their "friends" a boost even if it looks like the bidding may be topped out. I'm just not wired that way. I don't feel it's right to bump somehting that, IMO, may already have hit its peak.

I'm not saying this is the rule but it wouldn't surprise me if this happened more often that most people suspect.