Bidding on your own auction

[atx840]

Please also look into this bidder, since my original post his % has dropped but he is still bidding on a good majority of your cards.

He has bids in 26/27 of your current auction T206 listings. Same with n***n(270)


Bidder Information
Bidder: s***s( 442)
Feedback: 100%Positive
Bids on this item: 3

30-Day Summary
Total bids: 1041
Items bid on: 469
Bid activity (%) with this seller: 78%
Bid retractions: 3
Bid retractions (6 months): 42

[cincyredlegs]

My question is why are we doing all the detective work for Rick and he is not doing it himself. It's not like we haven't provided him dozens of examples (shill bidding and fake packs). It really isn't that hard and doesn't take as much work as some may think.

If I am running a business, the first time I hear of shady practices, I would put a process in place immediately to make sure it doesn't happen or limit to a bear minimum (understand you won't catch everyone everytime). That may be adding a person to monitor the bidding activity of my auctions. My reputation is worth more than a couple extra dollars in fees that I would make on ebay.

Mark

[TNP777]

Less than 10% of Rick's auctions are true auctions - the rest of his listings ate fixed price. Monitoring even those "few" auctions is probably more daunting than we think, but it would still be nice to see immediate emphatic action taken when shilling is exposed. Maybe Rick does take that action immediately, maybe not. It does seem that controversy swirls for quite some time before an appearance is made letting the board know it's been handled.

I've said it before across the street - Rick can run his business any way he darn well pleases. He's obviously doing something right, or a whole lot of somethings. Were it my business, though, I'd be all over it the instant improprieties became known, and I'd be vigorously informing my current and potential client base that I was doing everything possible to safeguard the integrity of my auctions.

[Sean1125]

I consign with Rick and the last thing I want is his items not getting bids because some consignors are not honest, but I don't think there is an EASY way to do it. I know there is a way but it will take Rick time and resources to get it figured out.

How do you propose he browses 2k listings at any one time cycling probably 10-20k a month? I'm being objective, you say he needs to do something but do not propose anything.

Edit*

Why not help to find a solution? I think it would benefit much more than just Rick and the consignor's if there was an easier, quicker way to figure out shill bidders. It would get items true prices and bidders would be more happy as well due to real deals every now and then.

[trobba]

Originally Posted by Sean1125

I consign with Rick and the last thing I want is his items not getting bids because some consignors are not honest, but I don't think there is an EASY way to do it. I know there is a way but it will take Rick time and resources to get it figured out.

How do you propose he browses 2k listings at any one time cycling probably 10-20k a month? I'm being objective, you say he needs to do something but do not propose anything.

Edit*

Why not help to find a solution? I think it would benefit much more than just Rick and the consignor's if there was an easier, quicker way to figure out shill bidders. It would get items true prices and bidders would be more happy as well due to real deals every now and then.

Solution:

accept less consignments and do it efficiently...economics 101

sounds like he is in jeopardy of losing his successful business practice so he needs to do something.

He can:

1. hire someone to go through his auctions and check for shill bidding

2. At least for the short term, accept fewer consignments. Once he gets a handle on the bidders and potential fishy bidding, he can slowly move to a larger scale. I am sure there is a number he can comfortably keep an eye on, and that should be his limit. Otherwise he has gotten too big to monitor all his auctions and that will slowly, or precipitously, lead to diminished returns and disappointed customers.

Seems like a small price to pay for regaining bidder faith and assuring the community of fair bidding and ethical selling.

3. The alternative is, of course, that he is "in" on some of this which would of course change everything...I am in no way suggesting this is the case, but it certainly would affect his willingness to make any real changes.

[T206DK]

Originally Posted by trobba

Solution:

accept less consignments and do it efficiently...economics 101

sounds like he is in jeopardy of losing his successful business practice so he needs to do something.

He can:

1. hire someone to go through his auctions and check for shill bidding

2. At least for the short term, accept fewer consignments. Once he gets a handle on the bidders and potential fishy bidding, he can slowly move to a larger scale. I am sure there is a number he can comfortably keep an eye on, and that should be his limit. Otherwise he has gotten too big to monitor all his auctions and that will slowly, or precipitously, lead to diminished returns and disappointed customers.

Seems like a small price to pay for regaining bidder faith and assuring the community of fair bidding and ethical selling.

3. The alternative is, of course, that he is "in" on some of this which would of course change everything...I am in no way suggesting this is the case, but it certainly would affect his willingness to make any real changes.

SEE this is the problem here. Everyone is too willing to cut this guy a break EVERYTIME someone notices something fishy about his auctions. Just stop biding on them and he will dry up and blow away , or go back to working a real job. The more excuse you collectors make for dishonest dealers , the more they think they can get awau with. They know a certain segment of collectors will bid on their stuff whether there is shill biding going on or not. If you guys bid on Probsteins stuff ...more power to ya ! he and others like him will linger and sour this hobby for any newcomers.

[TNP777]

Originally Posted by Sean1125

Why not help to find a solution? I think it would benefit much more than just Rick and the consignor's if there was an easier, quicker way to figure out shill bidders. It would get items true prices and bidders would be more happy as well due to real deals every now and then.

Sean, how is my or anyone else's responsibility to help come up with a solution? Sure, I guess we can throw out suggestions, but only the auctioneer knows the inner workings of his business.

This is a loose comparison, but I'll make it anyway. We've all complained long and loud about how steroids have damaged the integrity of baseball. So instead of complaining about it, would you have baseball fans work closely with MLB to help them protect the integrity of the game? Again, it's not our responsibility to fix baseball - it is MLB's responsibility to let their customers know everything possible is being done to safeguard the integrity of their product.

Similarly, I believe it is the auctioneer's responsibility to make sure his current and prospective client base is assured that shilling is in no way acceptable and will be dealt with harshly. Obviously this is a difficult thing to tackle, but given the recent rash of proven shills I would think it would be somewhat of a priority.

[cubsfan-budman]

At this point, I would definitely not consign with Probstein if I was in the market to do so. His responses seem to me to be dodging the issue and faking concern.

Sean, what do you propose he do about intentional fraud being perpetrated within his business? Nothing?!?

No way to run a business, imho.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by cubsfan-budman

At this point, I would definitely not consign with Probstein if I was in the market to do so. His responses seem to me to be dodging the issue and faking concern.

Sean, what do you propose he do about intentional fraud being perpetrated within his business? Nothing?!?

No way to run a business, imho.

What incentive does an auctioneer have to stop fraud which directly increases his income? None. Unless he thinks he's a target of a criminal investigation or feels he will lose business if nothing is done. Morality, the good of the hobby, accurate valuations, concern that future buyers of similarly graded cards will be defrauded due to inflated prior auction results -- none of that factors in to the mix.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by calvindog

What incentive does an auctioneer have to stop fraud which directly increases his income? None. Unless he thinks he's a target of a criminal investigation or feels he will lose business if nothing is done. Morality, the good of the hobby, accurate valuations, concern that future buyers of similarly graded cards will be defrauded due to inflated prior auction results -- none of that factors in to the mix.

Actually I think morality, good of the hobby, accurate valuations and concern for future buyers are all very important. Karma is a mo-fo too ......

I realize and agree with the general sentiment though....

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by calvindog

What incentive does an auctioneer have to stop fraud which directly increases his income? None. Unless he thinks he's a target of a criminal investigation or feels he will lose business if nothing is done. Morality, the good of the hobby, accurate valuations, concern that future buyers of similarly graded cards will be defrauded due to inflated prior auction results -- none of that factors in to the mix.

An unethical auctioneer has none. No surprise that ebay has changed their software over the years to make fraud discovery more difficult, as such fraud increases their profits as well.

[Sean1125]

Originally Posted by TNP777

Sean, how is my or anyone else's responsibility to help come up with a solution? Sure, I guess we can throw out suggestions, but only the auctioneer knows the inner workings of his business.

This is a loose comparison, but I'll make it anyway. We've all complained long and loud about how steroids have damaged the integrity of baseball. So instead of complaining about it, would you have baseball fans work closely with MLB to help them protect the integrity of the game? Again, it's not our responsibility to fix baseball - it is MLB's responsibility to let their customers know everything possible is being done to safeguard the integrity of their product.

Similarly, I believe it is the auctioneer's responsibility to make sure his current and prospective client base is assured that shilling is in no way acceptable and will be dealt with harshly. Obviously this is a difficult thing to tackle, but given the recent rash of proven shills I would think it would be somewhat of a priority.

Sorry for not being clear, I meant to give suggestions rather than a solution. I believe it is up to Rick to come up with a solution because ultimately he is responsible, but if anyone has any insight that they think would be helpful it would be nice to have it.

Edit: As a comparison to the steroids ordeal I would use "fan feedback" - everyone will have their opinions and I believe most would be willing to give it. I am not saying he will even use them but there might be an "ah-ha" moment on one of them.

[thehoodedcoder]

hi,

here is another auction that is sure to go for high dollar amount. i started scanning some of the bidders.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/370744120138...84.m1423.l2649

check it out and let me know what you think.

kevin

[MikeU]

Always trying to beat down the successful. If you would all follow the attached, you could be successful yourself.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFYX65R4sXI

[T205 GB]

Originally Posted by MikeU

Always trying to beat down the successful. If you would all follow the attached, you could be successful yourself.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFYX65R4sXI

Sounds like you have an invested interest. Why else would you condone this type of activity?

[Bugsy]

Originally Posted by Sean1125

I consign with Rick and the last thing I want is his items not getting bids because some consignors are not honest, but I don't think there is an EASY way to do it. I know there is a way but it will take Rick time and resources to get it figured out.

How do you propose he browses 2k listings at any one time cycling probably 10-20k a month? I'm being objective, you say he needs to do something but do not propose anything.

Edit*

Why not help to find a solution? I think it would benefit much more than just Rick and the consignor's if there was an easier, quicker way to figure out shill bidders. It would get items true prices and bidders would be more happy as well due to real deals every now and then.

1. A seller knows when there is a bid retraction. 40+ from the same bidder in a short period of time would send off red flags, no matter how big your operation is.

2. Is a consignor winning their own lots? Is the seller having to relist items because the consignor won the lot the first it was offered? That would not go by undetected either.

Either situation is artificial manipulation by one or more parties and the seller is an accomplice at best. I would just like to have these concerns addressed so that we can be reassured that this is not the case with Probstein auctions.

Thanks.

Chris

[T206DK]

Originally Posted by cincyredlegs

My question is why are we doing all the detective work for Rick and he is not doing it himself. It's not like we haven't provided him dozens of examples (shill bidding and fake packs). It really isn't that hard and doesn't take as much work as some may think.

If I am running a business, the first time I hear of shady practices, I would put a process in place immediately to make sure it doesn't happen or limit to a bear minimum (understand you won't catch everyone everytime). That may be adding a person to monitor the bidding activity of my auctions. My reputation is worth more than a couple extra dollars in fees that I would make on ebay.

Mark

In my opinion his posts on this thread are meant to show fake concern. Just say NO to shill bidding and these guys will have to go back to their real jobs