Genuine Babe Ruth Autographs

[JimStinson]

If one is to rely strictly on things like "slant", "Formation", etc. etc. in determining an autograph's authenticity. You'll likely succeed in avoiding the crude, average to slightly above average forgers on the ladder.

The especially talented ones have NAILED the above mentioned characteristics because they are ...to quote Mick Jagger "Practiced at the art of deception".

Master counterfeiters whos deception is to produce fake currency can draw a twenty dollar bill FREEHAND is it not then conceivable that someone can produce an exact replica of a BABE RUTH autograph or anyone else's using known examples ?

In the book "The Art of Making Money" the story of a master counterfeiter ..I quote
"Art Williams. took to crime almost immediately, starting with petty theft before graduating to robbing drug dealers. Eventually a man nicknamed "DaVinci" taught him the centuries-old art of counterfeiting. After a stint in jail, Williams emerged to discover that the Treasury Department had issued the most secure hundred-dollar bill ever created: the 1996 New Note. Williams spent months trying to defeat various security features before arriving at a bill so perfect that even law enforcement had difficulty distinguishing it from the real thing. Williams went on to print millions in counterfeit bills"

My point being that there should be other factors at play in determining an autograph's authenticity than just what it LOOKS like. Subtle things that take years to learn because the REALLY, REALLY talented elite are not cranking out Rube Marquards, George Kellys or even Thurman Munson's or Roger Maris. They are doing SINGLE SIGNED mint to near perfect sweet spot signed baseballs of Ruth, Gehrig, Mathewson and the like that upon completion are going to command 6 figures or more.
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jim@stinsonsports.com

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by JimStinson

My point being that there should be other factors at play in determining an autograph's authenticity than just what it LOOKS like. Subtle things that take years to learn because the REALLY, REALLY talented elite are not cranking out Rube Marquards, George Kellys or even Thurman Munson's or Roger Maris. They are doing SINGLE SIGNED mint to near perfect sweet spot signed baseballs of Ruth, Gehrig, Mathewson and the like that upon completion are going to command 6 figures or more.
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jim@stinsonsports.com

Of course. But when comparing those two columns, the slant of the 'B' was consistent, and consistently different between columns. Unfortunately that doesn't assure me that ALL of the ones on the right or bad, or that ALL of the ones on the left are good. Because of all those other things that you need to look at in a signature, I reduce risk by purchasing primarily hand-written letters, and not the $10,000+ ones. I also feel very comfortable purchasing autographs from you, just have been too cheap to win any so far.

The single-signed Ruth balls make me cringe, mainly because I know that no matter how good they look, I personally would never be certain; thus, I won't buy one, even if ALL the experts said it was good. Are there any single-signed Ruth balls that any of you feel even 98% comfortable are real?

Same for Mantle, DiMaggio and Williams - single-signed photos and balls are forger-fodder.

[JimStinson]

just based on personal experience I can remember a day when everyone in the room at a card show was selling cards and every single "walk in" that had autographs was aimed in my direction.

So I've looked at alot of autographs over the years as well as bought some good sized collections and can say that single signed balls of older players in ANY condition were rarely offered and I was NEVER in my life offered a pristine nr mint single signed Babe Ruth ball.

I've seen some nice ones maybe even approaching a strong 9 , but they are few and far between. But that was at a time that it took a really, really nice single signed Babe Ruth ball to break 5K. When the first Ruth ball broke 10K at auction we were astonished.

Since then well.....Where did all the perfect 10's come from ? Were they hiding them from us ? were they lost in the attic ?
To be kept in that type of condition they were obviously well taken care of and highly thought of as treasured family heirlooms with a paper trail a mile long. I mean they would have to be SOMEWHERE for almost 70 years
______________________
jim@stinsonsports.com

[Frozen in Time]

Originally Posted by JimStinson

If one is to rely strictly on things like "slant", "Formation", etc. etc. in determining an autograph's authenticity. You'll likely succeed in avoiding the crude, average to slightly above average forgers on the ladder.

The especially talented ones have NAILED the above mentioned characteristics because they are ...to quote Mick Jagger "Practiced at the art of deception".

Master counterfeiters whos deception is to produce fake currency can draw a twenty dollar bill FREEHAND is it not then conceivable that someone can produce an exact replica of a BABE RUTH autograph or anyone else's using known examples ?

In the book "The Art of Making Money" the story of a master counterfeiter ..I quote
"Art Williams. took to crime almost immediately, starting with petty theft before graduating to robbing drug dealers. Eventually a man nicknamed "DaVinci" taught him the centuries-old art of counterfeiting. After a stint in jail, Williams emerged to discover that the Treasury Department had issued the most secure hundred-dollar bill ever created: the 1996 New Note. Williams spent months trying to defeat various security features before arriving at a bill so perfect that even law enforcement had difficulty distinguishing it from the real thing. Williams went on to print millions in counterfeit bills"

My point being that there should be other factors at play in determining an autograph's authenticity than just what it LOOKS like. Subtle things that take years to learn because the REALLY, REALLY talented elite are not cranking out Rube Marquards, George Kellys or even Thurman Munson's or Roger Maris. They are doing SINGLE SIGNED mint to near perfect sweet spot signed baseballs of Ruth, Gehrig, Mathewson and the like that upon completion are going to command 6 figures or more.
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jim@stinsonsports.com

Hi Jim. I don't know you, but based on the glowing comments from other members of the forum, I realize that you are one of the most experienced and respected autograph experts around. In the article by Peter Nash that I quoted when I started this thread it also mentioned: "In our two previous installments we reported that in regard to the eleven record-breaking balls included in our illustration, expert Ron Keurajian stated there was, ”not one (he) would feel comfortable in pronouncing as genuine.” We also noticed that the many high-grade Ruth balls sold appeared to have been executed in multiple hands."

I was just curious (and I hope that this not inappropriate to ask) if there are any other factors (aside from the way they look) that would lead you to question the authenticity of any of the 11 Ruth balls in the right-hand column?

Thank you.

Craig

[JimStinson]

Originally Posted by Frozen in Time

Hi Jim. I don't know you, but based on the glowing comments from other members of the forum, I realize that you are one of the most experienced and respected autograph experts around. In the article by Peter Nash that I quoted when I started this thread it also mentioned: "In our two previous installments we reported that in regard to the eleven record-breaking balls included in our illustration, expert Ron Keurajian stated there was, ”not one (he) would feel comfortable in pronouncing as genuine.” We also noticed that the many high-grade Ruth balls sold appeared to have been executed in multiple hands."

I was just curious (and I hope that this not inappropriate to ask) if there are any other factors (aside from the way they look) that would lead you to question the authenticity of any of the 11 Ruth balls in the right-hand column?

Thank you.

Craig

Craig,
there is really no concrete answer to your question BUT to use an analogy unrelated to autographs if you and I were antique car dealers and someone rolled onto the lot one day with a PERFECT model T, not a ding a scratch, All original PERFECT like it just came off the assembly line. Wouldn't we FIRST be amazed and then want to know how this miracle came to be ?

But then if we started seeing one right after another rolling on the lot after never having seen anything remotely CLOSE prior to the first one ...I think we would begin to ask ALOT of questions and begin to attempt to connect the dots. Make sense ?
__________________________
jim@stinsonsports.com

[Frozen in Time]

Originally Posted by JimStinson

Craig,
there is really no concrete answer to your question BUT to use an analogy unrelated to autographs if you and I were antique car dealers and someone rolled onto the lot one day with a PERFECT model T, not a ding a scratch, All original PERFECT like it just came off the assembly line. Wouldn't we FIRST be amazed and then want to know how this miracle came to be ?

But then if we started seeing one right after another rolling on the lot after never having seen anything remotely CLOSE prior to the first one ...I think we would begin to ask ALOT of questions and begin to attempt to connect the dots. Make sense ?
__________________________
jim@stinsonsports.com

Yes, it absolutely does. Thank you Jim.

[prewarsports]

David

If what you say is correct about signing a baseball being exactly the same as a flat surface then why are there literally hundreds of pre-war players who would print their names on baseballs and not even attempt a "signature" or at least the signatures on baseballs are dramitacally different than on paper? If it was "exactly the same" why wouldn't they sign their names the way they did on paper?

EDITED THE REST OF WHAT I WROTE, NOT WORTH IT.

[CardsFan999]

Originally Posted by JimStinson

If one is to rely strictly on things like "slant", "Formation", etc. etc. in determining an autograph's authenticity. You'll likely succeed in avoiding the crude, average to slightly above average forgers on the ladder.

The especially talented ones have NAILED the above mentioned characteristics because they are ...to quote Mick Jagger "Practiced at the art of deception".

Master counterfeiters whos deception is to produce fake currency can draw a twenty dollar bill FREEHAND is it not then conceivable that someone can produce an exact replica of a BABE RUTH autograph or anyone else's using known examples ?

In the book "The Art of Making Money" the story of a master counterfeiter ..I quote
"Art Williams. took to crime almost immediately, starting with petty theft before graduating to robbing drug dealers. Eventually a man nicknamed "DaVinci" taught him the centuries-old art of counterfeiting. After a stint in jail, Williams emerged to discover that the Treasury Department had issued the most secure hundred-dollar bill ever created: the 1996 New Note. Williams spent months trying to defeat various security features before arriving at a bill so perfect that even law enforcement had difficulty distinguishing it from the real thing. Williams went on to print millions in counterfeit bills"

My point being that there should be other factors at play in determining an autograph's authenticity than just what it LOOKS like. Subtle things that take years to learn because the REALLY, REALLY talented elite are not cranking out Rube Marquards, George Kellys or even Thurman Munson's or Roger Maris. They are doing SINGLE SIGNED mint to near perfect sweet spot signed baseballs of Ruth, Gehrig, Mathewson and the like that upon completion are going to command 6 figures or more.
______________________
jim@stinsonsports.com

I'm about half-way through "The Art of Making Money" and it really is instructive to understand that forgery is really one of the oldest professions and those who are SERIOUS about it succeed often before being caught. I recently finished another excellent book on the topic, "Caveat Emptor" by Ken Perenyi. The same applies. People want to believe something is real even when alarms should be going off in their head saying that it's likely otherwise. People don't write much any more or read other's hand-writing so it's getting even easier as time passes to find your dupe.

I can easily see why Babe Ruth is the most prevalent high-dollar forgery. There are only four letters in each name. The signature doesn't seem hard even to a novice. Examples are numerous. He was known to sign a lot. Etc., etc. I'm pretty sure that practicing this one 500 times a day for a few
weeks would lead to a pretty good result for even a semi-talented forger. Get some old paper, old ink (easily done BTW) and you're there.