OT: No One Elected to the Hall?

[Bugsy]

Originally Posted by novakjr

My ONLY issue with the steroid problem is as many stated, that during the time it was not against the game's rules

Commissioner Vincent said they were not allowed in 1991.

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/etick.../memos20051109

[HOF Auto Rookies]

All I know is that because of the ramifications of no one getting in this year, the small town (which primarily relys heavily on revenue from the inductions) will take a serious hit by the outcome of this vote. It was there pride and joy come induction day.

[buymycards]

I am laughing at all of the questions about who took steroids and who did not. The fact is that all of the players benefited from steroid use whether they took them or they did not. How many players have world series rings because they looked the other way when some of their teammates were using steroids? How many players received more salary because of the increased fan base during the McGwire/Sosa era?

In my opinion the players who weren't using are just as guilty as the players who were using. Why did they feel it was right to look the other way when a teammate was breaking the law or breaking the rules? Do you let someone commit a crime just because they are a teammate? What if the crime was something other than taking steroids, would they let a teammate get away with rape or stealing?

Even if it wasn't a crime - do you let someone get away with cheating? Being on the same team doesn't make it OK to let someone cheat. It needed to be addressed in the locker room or if it was a crime then it should be have reported to the police.

I love baseball and I hate to see the way the steroid use has degraded the integrity of the game, but I was very happy to see that no one was elected.

And to all of the players out there - have you ever heard of doing the right thing? Shouldn't your integrity and honesty mean more to you than some peer pressure from your co-workers? How can you expect your children to stand up to peer pressure when you could not?

Just my two cents.

Rick

[itjclarke]

Originally Posted by buymycards

I am laughing at all of the questions about who took steroids and who did not. The fact is that all of the players benefited from steroid use whether they took them or they did not. How many players have world series rings because they looked the other way when some of their teammates were using steroids? How many players received more salary because of the increased fan base during the McGwire/Sosa...

I think many more players were kept out of the league due to steroid use. SI did a great article last year about 4 pitches drafted by the Twins. All had very similar builds (btwn 6'4"-6'5" and wirey) and threw at similar velocities (85-87).
Over a 3-4 year period 3 of them hit a plateau while one was able to consistently build muscle/body mass, to the point he'd gained about 60 lbs. He also gained about 10 MPH on his fastball and ended up in the big leagues throwing nearly 100 MPH.

A good buddy of mine was a really good football player and was invited to 2-3 camps with the 49ers. He never made the team, and eventually ended up in the XFL. He'd tell me about guys who would get stronger after weeks of hot practice when everyone was else was wearing down.. And those guys separated themselves from the others. He knew several guys were juicing, and several were playing, making teams, getting paid in large part because of it.

The focus always seems to be on 5-6, maybe 10 guys who are the best of the best and threatening this or that record... And in a game like baseball its understandable since records are so sacred, but I think the far more expansive problem lies within the fringes and the hundreds/thousands of players who have to face a choice to use or not. Guys who see people flying past them in the minors, or an NFL training camp, and see their dream opportunity slipping away.

I guess this has very little to do with the hall vote, so may not even be relevant to this conversation, but I do think it deserves more attention in general.

[dgo71]

Originally Posted by itjclarke

I think many more players were kept out of the league due to steroid use.

The very first time I heard of steroid use in MLB, it was from David McCarty when he was in AAA and bemoaning the fact that the minor leaguers were tested near-daily, while the MLB guys got away with whatever they wanted scott free. There were many players who didn't get a fair shake because cheaters took their roster spot, and beyond any ridiculous records and statistics, this is what bothers me about steroids the most.

Originally Posted by ctownboy

The PROBLEM with picking out the best players from the Steroid Era is that BECAUSE of the steroids no one REALLY KNOWS WHO the best players were during that era.

A hundred times YES. It is the shadow of doubt these players cast on themselves that now hurts their case.

[packs]

To me there is no question who the best players of the steroid era are. They are Ken Griffey Jr, Frank Thomas, Jim Thome, and Albert Belle.

[novakjr]

Originally Posted by dgo71

The very first time I heard of steroid use in MLB, it was from David McCarty when he was in AAA and bemoaning the fact that the minor leaguers were tested near-daily, while the MLB guys got away with whatever they wanted scott free. There were many players who didn't get a fair shake because cheaters took their roster spot, and beyond any ridiculous records and statistics, this is what bothers me about steroids the most.

How long until these players sue the league for lost wages? Similar to the collusion suits in the 80's.

[novakjr]

Originally Posted by Bugsy

Commissioner Vincent said they were not allowed in 1991.

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/etick.../memos20051109

That may be the case. But saying something doesn't make it so. Especially without an enforcement program in place. Without a testing program, there was not a proper exemption process.

Given the injury history of many of these players, I guarantee many of them were on a steroid at some point. I also think that at some point McGwire would've received a medical exemption. However, he's an odd case, because he was certainly also using before it became a medical necessity for him..

Anyways. here's an interesting article about the league exemptions. And there appears to be a pattern forming with ADHD drugs..
http://deadspin.com/5964744/1-in-10-...ll-this-season

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/m...ositive-113012

[Bugsy]

Originally Posted by novakjr

That may be the case. But saying something doesn't make it so. Especially without an enforcement program in place. Without a testing program, there was not a proper exemption process.

Given the injury history of many of these players, I guarantee many of them were on a steroid at some point. I also think that at some point McGwire would've received a medical exemption. However, he's an odd case, because he was certainly also using before it became a medical necessity for him..

Anyways. here's an interesting article about the league exemptions. And there appears to be a pattern forming with ADHD drugs..
http://deadspin.com/5964744/1-in-10-...ll-this-season

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/m...ositive-113012

Maybe Barry or McGwire can show the prescription their doctor wrote for them, but I'm guessing they acquired their drugs from a juicehead at the local gym...not exactly the method most would use who have a legitimate medical condition.

[novakjr]

Originally Posted by Bugsy

Maybe Barry or McGwire can show the prescription their doctor wrote for them, but I'm guessing they acquired their drugs from a juicehead at the local gym...not exactly the method most would use who have a legitimate medical condition.

Barry's different, dude flat out juiced.

Mac definitely juiced. After the nagging injuries in '93 and '94, I believe he would've been able to receive an exemption though. But that's irrelevant because he was already using anyways. I wouldn't hold the Andro over him either. It was sold over the counter, and the government didn't even categorize it as a steroid until 2004.. Again though, that's also irrelevant because of previous use..

I'm just saying that there were probably a number of players who could've been granted an exemption. IF you were to know what current players have legitimately been granted exemptions, would you hold it over them?

[ctownboy]

Novakjr,

The reason testing wasn't implemented was because Bud Selig (and a couple of other owners) staged a palace coup and caused Fay Vincent to resign as Commissioner.

Vincent sent out a seven page letter stating that steroids were illegal in baseball. The problem was, baseball was in the middle of their agreement with the players and implementing rules against steroids and having a testing program would have meant opening up the collective bargaining agreement and putting the rules in. The owners didn't want to do that. They wanted to wait until the next bargaining session.

The problem with that was Selig and Reinsdorf got a no confidence vote against Vincent and Vincent resigned (with Selig taking over as acting Commissioner). So, the next time contract negotiations came up, Selig was in charge and he said NOTHING about steroids and testing. Therefor, a new contract was in place an no testing was implemented.

Selig COULD have stopped this mess before it started but he didn't. That is why I laugh at him for the mess baseball is currently in.

David

[itjclarke]

Originally Posted by ctownboy

Novakjr,

The reason testing wasn't implemented was because Bud Selig (and a couple of other owners) staged a palace coup and caused Fay Vincent to resign as Commissioner.

Vincent sent out a seven page letter stating that steroids were illegal in baseball. The problem was, baseball was in the middle of their agreement with the players and implementing rules against steroids and having a testing program would have meant opening up the collective bargaining agreement and putting the rules in. The owners didn't want to do that. They wanted to wait until the next bargaining session.

The problem with that was Selig and Reinsdorf got a no confidence vote against Vincent and Vincent resigned (with Selig taking over as acting Commissioner). So, the next time contract negotiations came up, Selig was in charge and he said NOTHING about steroids and testing. Therefor, a new contract was in place an no testing was implemented.

Selig COULD have stopped this mess before it started but he didn't. That is why I laugh at him for the mess baseball is currently in.

David

+1, Selig is a dog