OT: No One Elected to the Hall?

[dgo71]

Originally Posted by z28jd

I'm shocked Piazza got so many votes, just shows what little evidence voters are basing their steroid judgement on as if the Mitchell report caught every player using. A 62nd round draft pick as the all-time HR leader for catchers (but he had the 20th most games played at the position)doesn't raise eyebrows?

Biggio has some questionable seasons in there too, a huge jump in homers at age 27 in 1993, then a career high in HR's at age 39? plus being teammates with the accused by some Bagwell, Luis Gonzalez and Ken Caminiti all in 1993? Also with the 93 Astros, Chris Donnells, named in Mitchell report.

Neither Piazza nor Biggio ever failed a test, were named on any reports or linked to anyone who distributed steroids. Everything about them came from unfounded rumors started by people who made the same assumptions you are making. I'm all for punishing the guilty, but not the guilty by association.

[dgo71]

Originally Posted by insidethewrapper

I didn't know steroids improved your eyesight and eye-hand coordination. You still have to hit the ball. Besides, it wasn't ever against any rules back then. Nothing was in place. I'm not saying it was right , but it wasn't against the rules. The best of that era should still get into the HOF.

Gaylord Perry actually cheated against the rules and he is in !
Players use Ritalin to concentrate better, and eye surgery to see better. Didn't Tiger Woods have lasik to improve to 20/10 eyesight. Doesn't this give these players an advantage making contact with the ball ! Why is it OK to improve by these means and not others ?

Wow, every cliche defense of steroids in one concise post.

Steroids don't make you hit the ball -
Yes, steroids do actually improve your vision, and thus your hand-eye coordination. But let's not forget that added strength also improves bat speed, which is pretty important in hitting. Palmeiro had the bat speed of a little leaguer at the start of the season he got his 3000th, then all of a sudden he's whipping it through the zone. Magic? It boggles my mind that people don't want to admit that "performance enhancing" drugs enhance your performance! There must be SOME reason guys take them, right? I doubt it's only because they want their "boys" to shrink and take 10 years off their lives.

Not against the rules -
I didn't know baseball had to implement a rule for players to know they shouldn't do it. I don't think baseball has a rule in place for pulling out a gun and shooting a guy trying to steal second, so it must be OK. That'll teach you Juan Pierre! Was it not enough that the U.S. government made steroids ILLEGAL? I think U.S. law trumps the baseball rulebook.

Gaylord Perry-
The old standby for every steroid defender. Perry pitched in a different era when emery boards and vaseline were considered cute. He got grandfathered so to speak. Did he cheat? Hell yes he did. But for whatever reason there has always been a certain amount of inconsistency in the way people viewed what he did and the negative stigma of steroids. In either event, two (or twenty) wrongs don't make a right. Perry's induction doesn't pave the way for enshrining other cheaters.

Ritalin/amphetamines/eye surgery/etc. -
Quite simply, to compare a medical procedure like eye surgery to steroids is about as apples and oranges as you can get. That's like saying if a guy hits the gym 5 days a week, he has an unfair advantage over the guy who goes 3 times a week. There are shades of gray, and the effects any of these things has on ones performance compared to what steroids can do is miles apart.

Originally Posted by HRBAKER

They're the ones who decided they needed to cheat to compete. Now they are just paying the piper.

Absolutely! They cheated to gain fame and megamillion dollar contracts, and now we're all supposed to feel sorry for them and bestow on them the highest honor an athlete can have? No thanks. They didn't mind sullying the game and their reputations for the lure of big money and adulation, they shouldn't be rewarded now after betraying the fans that cheered them on through their tainted careers.

[Tom Hufford]

Well, there was one player on the ballot that I KNOW was clean - he wouldn't, and still doesn't, even touch drinks with caffeine in them - DALE MURPHY. His vote total went up 4.1% over his 2012 vote - the highest rise of anyone on the ballot - but too little, too late.

[insidethewrapper]

Take steroids = get stronger, body changes
Tommy John Surgery = arm stronger, body changes

[Jlighter]

Originally Posted by insidethewrapper

Take steroids = get stronger, body changes
Tommy John Surgery = arm stronger, body changes

How many people have voluntarily gone through Tommy John Surgery.

[dgo71]

Originally Posted by insidethewrapper

Take steroids = get stronger, body changes
Tommy John Surgery = arm stronger, body changes

Take steroids = entire body gets stronger and the body physically changes (also known as cheating)
TJ Surgery = the arm "heals" but the rest of your body doesn't change (also known as correcting a medical condition)
Comparing the two is assinine.

[drc]

A line that separates for me is whether or not something is illegal. Tommy John surgery is legal, while taking steroids to improve athletic performance is illegal.

A footnote is that no one who had Tommy John surgery is in the Hall of Fame either. Including Tommy John.

[dgo71]

Originally Posted by drc

A line that separates for me is whether or not something is illegal. Tommy John surgery is legal, while taking steroids to improve athletic performance is illegal.

+++

[Matthew80]

Originally Posted by drc

A line that separates for me is whether or not something is illegal. Tommy John surgery is legal, while taking steroids to improve athletic performance is illegal.

A footnote is that no one who had Tommy John surgery is in the Hall of Fame either. Including Tommy John.

Well said

+1

[novakjr]

Originally Posted by drc

A line that separates for me is whether or not something is illegal. Tommy John surgery is legal, while taking steroids to improve athletic performance is illegal.

A footnote is that no one who had Tommy John surgery is in the Hall of Fame either. Including Tommy John.

My ONLY issue with the steroid problem is as many stated, that during the time it was not against the game's rules, and with the counter argument that it was illegal...NOW, I'm NOT trying to apply that to all steroid users, BUT steroids aren't exactly illegal as everyone is claiming. They are certainly legal when medically prescribed. There were PLENTY of players who were using it to cheat, and there were others who probably had legitimate medical reasons. The problem here is that without league testing at the time, we ALSO didn't have a system for exemptions in place as we do today. A small chunk of these players who perhaps would've qualified for an exemption are just being lumped in with the cheaters. WHY? Because they weren't against the games rules, to make an exemption necessary..

[tjb1952tjb]

Originally Posted by dgo71

Take steroids = entire body gets stronger and the body physically changes (also known as cheating)
TJ Surgery = the arm "heals" but the rest of your body doesn't change (also known as correcting a medical condition)
Comparing the two is assinine.

+1

[brob28]

Originally Posted by dgo71

wow, every cliche defense of steroids in one concise post.

Steroids don't make you hit the ball -
yes, steroids do actually improve your vision, and thus your hand-eye coordination. But let's not forget that added strength also improves bat speed, which is pretty important in hitting. Palmeiro had the bat speed of a little leaguer at the start of the season he got his 3000th, then all of a sudden he's whipping it through the zone. Magic? It boggles my mind that people don't want to admit that "performance enhancing" drugs enhance your performance! There must be some reason guys take them, right? I doubt it's only because they want their "boys" to shrink and take 10 years off their lives.

Not against the rules -
i didn't know baseball had to implement a rule for players to know they shouldn't do it. I don't think baseball has a rule in place for pulling out a gun and shooting a guy trying to steal second, so it must be ok. That'll teach you juan pierre! Was it not enough that the u.s. Government made steroids illegal? I think u.s. Law trumps the baseball rulebook.

Gaylord perry-
the old standby for every steroid defender. Perry pitched in a different era when emery boards and vaseline were considered cute. He got grandfathered so to speak. Did he cheat? Hell yes he did. But for whatever reason there has always been a certain amount of inconsistency in the way people viewed what he did and the negative stigma of steroids. In either event, two (or twenty) wrongs don't make a right. Perry's induction doesn't pave the way for enshrining other cheaters.

Ritalin/amphetamines/eye surgery/etc. -
quite simply, to compare a medical procedure like eye surgery to steroids is about as apples and oranges as you can get. That's like saying if a guy hits the gym 5 days a week, he has an unfair advantage over the guy who goes 3 times a week. There are shades of gray, and the effects any of these things has on ones performance compared to what steroids can do is miles apart.



Absolutely! They cheated to gain fame and megamillion dollar contracts, and now we're all supposed to feel sorry for them and bestow on them the highest honor an athlete can have? No thanks. They didn't mind sullying the game and their reputations for the lure of big money and adulation, they shouldn't be rewarded now after betraying the fans that cheered them on through their tainted careers.

+100