Brooklyn CDV

[yanks12025]

"Collectors have also commented that scans of the CDV appear to suggest that the albumen photograph may not have been original to the Williamson Studios mount. Messier’s report did not address this issue and what appears to have been a possible removal of a prior image close to the gilded Williamson identification. Messier removed the card from its SGC-graded holder for his examination and would have been able to determine if the albumen photograph was original to the mount if asked to do so. Messier declined comment on that issue stating he was not authorized by his client to speak beyond what is contained in his written report."

That section is from the haul of shame article. I don't understand why he can't comment on it more besides what's in the report. I know if I was going to be bidding 50-100k I should be able to ask him whatever I want about it after he looked at it. I bet after it sells in feb, it won't be the end up us hearing about it.

[Runscott]

Brock, the people who have the resources and willingness to bid on this are certainly going to try to find out as much as they possibly can about it. This board and the various articles are only some of the resources they have available.

Multiple photography experts are consulted by potential bidders ANY time an item like this becomes available, and discussions abound...behind the scenes. Our board is just a discussion forum and free advertising - nobody will be bidding on this without having done their research, and nothing that we have discussed here has not been discussed ten times as much in private.

If the winning bidder is present at the auction, then the show will be over. On the other hand, if he is not (which would be ridiculous, as the price of a plane ticket is minimal compared to the price of the cdv), then future episodes will hinge on his thoughts when he opens the package. I wish it were going to be me.

[oldjudge]

Brock-Paul was hired by Troy. He performed his analysis based upon what Troy requested (and paid for). If Troy had paid for additional services then they would have been performed and commented on in Paul's report. I don't know what the terms and conditions that SRAs operate under, but I would hope that a winning bidder, if he or she made arrangements in advance, would have the opportunity to return the CdV if it later proved to be a fake.

[wonkaticket]

Maybe it came from Peter Nash himself.

[E93]

Originally Posted by wonkaticket

Maybe it came from Peter Nash himself.

I would laugh if I wasn't crying.
JimB

[wonkaticket]

LOL, so true Jim.

I often wonder when we can expect the Hauls of Shame expose on fakes created by Peter Nash article written by Peter Nash to come out via email?

It shouldn’t be too hard for Peter to get the details for the article who would know better.

[benjulmag]

Originally Posted by yanks12025

"......... I don't understand why he can't comment on it more besides what's in the report. I know if I was going to be bidding 50-100k I should be able to ask him whatever I want about it after he looked at it. I bet after it sells in feb, it won't be the end up us hearing about it.

Forensic experts such as Mr. Messier work only for the person who hired them, which in this case was Troy/the consigner. Unless and until Mr. Messier is given authorization by Troy/the consigner to discuss the card with prospective bidders, he may not do so. You do though raise a valid point -- that if Saco River Auctions is expecting a bidder to be willing to pony up a six-figure sum for the card, then that bidder should have the right to ask Mr. Messier anything he wants and Mr. Messier should be authorized to respond. The flip side to this argument is that I am certain Mr. Messier is a very busy man and that it is not practical for him to respond to a continuous stream of calls from prospective bidders over the next four weeks. Given the unusual circumstance of this situation -- a potential six-figure auction photograph with real authenticity issues, I believe Saco River Auctions should make some special arrangement. For example, there could be a designated phone-in period during which time Mr. Messier will be authorized to respond to questions from prospective bidders.

[e107collector]

Originally Posted by benjulmag

Given the unusual circumstance of this situation -- a potential six-figure auction photograph with real authenticity issues, I believe Saco River Auctions should make some special arrangement. For example, there could be a designated phone-in period during which time Mr. Messier will be authorized to respond to questions from prospective bidders.

Corey - well said!

Tony

[Saco River Auction]

I have watched the discussions on the board lately, however I have chosen to stay out of it. I am not a collector of baseball cards and this truly is your forum. I have the utmost respect for all of you and I have learned tons from each of you regarding this hobby. There are a few things that I would like to address, and from time to time during the next 4 weeks I may chime in, but this is your forum.

I hired Mr. Messier to refute the claims and findings made by Leland's. At the time Leland's said that the cdv was a modern reproduction created with an inkjet or laser jet printer. They also viewed a dot pattern in the verso that indicated it was also made with the same technology. Mr. Messier was hired by me to determine whether their findings were accurate or not. His findings clearly show that they were not accurate. As I have stated before I did not see the need for the additional testing, as the cost and potential degradation to the card were not worth it.

Mr. Messier was hired by me and I made the decision that he is not to release any further info. This is not based on you all or any potential bidders. This decision was made due to the fact that Peter Nash was hounding him in the days leading up to Mr. Messier's examination. Nash has been hounding him since. Mr. Messier was hired to do the examination. His time is too valuable to be fielding calls from a "reporter". Likewise he does not know any of you, nor does he know who is on the other end of the phone line.

I have invited all of you to come and view the card yourself. For most of you on the east coast this is not an expensive endeavor and can be done in a day. I have a 40 power microscope that the card can be viewed with and I invite you all to bring your own expert. Other than being able to talk to Mr. CH Williamson(the photographer) and asking him if he produced this albumen, there is no way to make you all convinced of this. We are convinced that this is real, this is beautiful and this should bring a nice price on February 6th.

The last thing I would like to address is the figure that the press printed. I came to this number based on three large sports memorabilia auction houses that I called and spoke with about this card. I simply asked them the following question, "If this item was in your auction, what would be your low estimate for your catalogue" The answers from the three auction halls were averaged out this is how we came up with six figures. With a rare and unique item it is difficult to come up with estimates so I figured I would defer to auction house that deal with sports items of this caliber daily.

Again, I would invite any of you to call my cell phone with any questions 207-650-5677

Troy

[jhs5120]

Originally Posted by Saco River Auction

I have watched the discussions on the board lately, however I have chosen to stay out of it. I am not a collector of baseball cards and this truly is your forum. I have the utmost respect for all of you and I have learned tons from each of you regarding this hobby. There are a few things that I would like to address, and from time to time during the next 4 weeks I may chime in, but this is your forum.

I hired Mr. Messier to refute the claims and findings made by Leland's. At the time Leland's said that the cdv was a modern reproduction created with an inkjet or laser jet printer. They also viewed a dot pattern in the verso that indicated it was also made with the same technology. Mr. Messier was hired by me to determine whether their findings were accurate or not. His findings clearly show that they were not accurate. As I have stated before I did not see the need for the additional testing, as the cost and potential degradation to the card were not worth it.

Mr. Messier was hired by me and I made the decision that he is not to release any further info. This is not based on you all or any potential bidders. This decision was made due to the fact that Peter Nash was hounding him in the days leading up to Mr. Messier's examination. Nash has been hounding him since. Mr. Messier was hired to do the examination. His time is too valuable to be fielding calls from a "reporter". Likewise he does not know any of you, nor does he know who is on the other end of the phone line.

I have invited all of you to come and view the card yourself. For most of you on the east coast this is not an expensive endeavor and can be done in a day. I have a 40 power microscope that the card can be viewed with and I invite you all to bring your own expert. Other than being able to talk to Mr. CH Williamson(the photographer) and asking him if he produced this albumen, there is no way to make you all convinced of this. We are convinced that this is real, this is beautiful and this should bring a nice price on February 6th.

The last thing I would like to address is the figure that the press printed. I came to this number based on three large sports memorabilia auction houses that I called and spoke with about this card. I simply asked them the following question, "If this item was in your auction, what would be your low estimate for your catalogue" The answers from the three auction halls were averaged out this is how we came up with six figures. With a rare and unique item it is difficult to come up with estimates so I figured I would defer to auction house that deal with sports items of this caliber daily.

Again, I would invite any of you to call my cell phone with any questions 207-650-5677

Troy

Well said Troy.

I am no expert in this field, so I won't pretend to be. I am just wondering, Lelands rejected it because they thought it was an inkjet copy - that is where the skeptism is coming from. Troy did everything within reason to disprove that. Yes, there is always some obscure, outside chance that this card (or any for that matter) is a counterfeit, but hasn't he done enough? I trust SGC over Lelands and I certainly trust the expertise of SGC and Messier over any auction house. Enough is enough. I think it's time to put the pitchforks down and enjoy the auction.

[yanks12025]

I just have one more question and it's for in general. Say any high priced item is sold and then in acouple months determined it was stolen years ago. So I'd guess the FBI or whoever would take the item back and return to where it was stolen from. So would the buyer get their money back? Then say the seller who didn't know it was stolen spent the money? So what would happen.

[GaryPassamonte]

Troy,
Given the potential value of this card, the additional cost of testing the paper would not seem prohibitive. This testing would allay doubts about the age of the CdV. The pool of prospective serious bidders for this CdV is small. Excluding any from this group could have a detrimental effect on the final price. If I were the seller, I would not hesitate to bear the expense of reducing existing doubts about the CdV with further testing. Although I agree that you have gone above and beyond what would be normally considered sufficient authentication for this type of item, doubts are in the minds of many in your serious bidding pool for various reasons. Why not remove these doubts?

[Saco River Auction]

Originally Posted by yanks12025

I just have one more question and it's for in general. Say any high priced item is sold and then in acouple months determined it was stolen years ago. So I'd guess the FBI or whoever would take the item back and return to where it was stolen from. So would the buyer get their money back? Then say the seller who didn't know it was stolen spent the money? So what would happen.

Hi, this is whats crazy about this whole thing. Are we talking about this being a fake or are we now talking about this thing being stolen? As far as I am concerned the only person claiming this is stolen has zero credibilty and is in fact linked to fraud, deception and forgery himself.....and you all know who I am referring to. When you google a persons name and everything you find is negative, but that same individual spends his time crusading for a hobby that he himself has helped to taint, I give zero credibility to anything he says. We at SRA have never had anything stolen in our hands to the best of our knowledge. We keep meticulous records on every item we buy or take on consignment and we are regularly inspected by Local Law Enforcement and the Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco and Firearms(we have an FFL). We are also under the jurisdiction and regulations of the Maine Auctioneers Board and we have an unblemished record. I am not sure what the ramifications would be if an item was sold at auction and later determined to be stolen. That may be a better question for law enforcement.
One thing I will tell you all and then I am going to stop posting on this site is, this card is not stolen and this card is not a fake. From here you all will have to determine the fate and legacy of this card. We have done out job authenticating it and promoting it. The question now is do you want to own a rare piece of baseball history, or do you not?

Troy

[bmarlowe1]

Originally Posted by jhs5120

Yes, there is always some obscure, outside chance that this card (or any for that matter) is a counterfeit.....

Compare that to the improbability of the find as described.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by bmarlowe1

Compare that to the improbability of the find as described.

Mark- I am not sure he understands how GREAT some of the fraudsters are at their trade. Several in this thread do.

As for the photo, I am not an expert but hope the pitchforks stay out, only in the name of safety. The CDV very well could be perfect with a clean pedigree, I will let others argue that.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by Saco River Auction

Other than being able to talk to Mr. CH Williamson(the photographer) and asking him if he produced this albumen, there is no way to make you all convinced of this.

Troy

Yes, there is. We've mentioned it on this board, and Mr. Messier mentioned it at the end of his report. The fact that your consignor doesn't want to incur the additional tests, doesn't invalidate their usefulness.

[terjung]

Originally Posted by Runscott

Yes, there is. We've mentioned it on this board, and Mr. Messier mentioned it at the end of his report. The fact that your consignor doesn't want to incur the additional tests, doesn't invalidate their usefulness.

Asking for the consignor or auction house to perform destructive investigation as part of the forensic process seems a bit much, IMO.

I do forensic investigations myself (not of anything related to this field), but it is very common to say that an investigation is limited to non-destructive means or to state that additional information could be gleaned from a destructive investigation. Analysis of the paper fibers and binder sounds like a destructive process to me.

It's simply not worth it IMO to tear apart something that is potentially so valuable only to say, well, how about that... it was still consistent with 19th c. paper and binder. Once again, that still would not be a conclusive "yes, it's authentic", but rather ruling out yet another possible avenue to prove the negative, as Corey pointed out.

Personally, I'm impressed with the efforts that were undertaken.

[wonkaticket]

Agree with Brian, I think much has been done above and beyond many other auction houses. If I was the auction house I would say bid accordingly or pass at this point.

[Runscott]

........