Who bought this??

[Jaybird]

Here's a closeup of the glove from this photo on right, as compared to the 1906 photo that sold in Legendary last year. Looks like at least same manufacturer to me which is just more circumstantial information to bring this into his pro-career? I think 1904-05 sounds right as well.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by Jaybird

Here's a closeup of the glove from this photo on right, as compared to the 1906 photo that sold in Legendary last year. Looks like at least same manufacturer to me which is just more circumstantial information to bring this into his pro-career? I think 1904-05 sounds right as well.

Nice detective-work, Jason.

[GKreindler]

So, I have been emailing back and forth with Jon, as well as researching, and I think I found a bit more information.

I had an image in a magazine that was of a game at the Polo Grounds from early May of 1903. I couldn't really scan it because of some clutter issues on my workspace, but I snapped a shot with my phone.



There you can clearly see that the leftfield stands are in the same configuration as the Matty photo. So, with that in mind, it's fair to say that they were changed sometime between then and the 1904 photo I posted a page back. I would imagine that the construction happened between seasons, so I would feel comfortable leaving off 1904 as an option all together. Granted, it could have certainly happened during the year - Yankee Stadium in '36 (bleacher configuration) and '37 (right field decks in foul territory) comes to mind, but I figured that it was an alright bet to think otherwise.

Interestingly enough, with the enclosed May of '03 photo, we can also see the actual advertisement on the wall - Pall Mall. It's not the same one in the photo of Matty. Typically, ballpark advertisements were changed in the off-season (though sometimes, it could happen in mid-season or before the World Series, and in some cases, even more than once in a season), so I might guess that the photo isn't from 1903, either. That would put it between 1901 and 1902. And really, if you look at the Polo Grounds Temple Cup lithograph from 1894, the stands seem to have that same configuration.



So, there's no reason not to think that they weren't like that in 1900, Matty's first year with the Giants.

I'll keep looking, but right now, I think the date of the image is somewhere between 1900 and 1902. Now, because it's tough to come across shots of the ballpark from the early turn of the century, I can't really say all of this with 100% certainty. But if nothing else, it's a good place to start.

And if it is from those years, definitely not a bad purchase. It's perhaps one of the earliest images of Matty in the pros.

Graig

[yanks12025]

Here's a pic supposedly from 1901.

http://www.legendaryauctions.com/Lot...ntoryid=109536

[Dto7]

Originally Posted by Jaybird

Here's a closeup of the glove from this photo on right, as compared to the 1906 photo that sold in Legendary last year. Looks like at least same manufacturer to me which is just more circumstantial information to bring this into his pro-career? I think 1904-05 sounds right as well.

Here's that same photo that appeared in newspapers in 1905. November 22 and December 1, 1905.

[yanks12025]

I just found another one of this same photo sold back in 2002. But it's cut down more then yours.

http://www.legendaryauctions.com/Lot...entoryid=21272

[prewarsports]

Assuming this is a Home Game (at Polo Grounds) the Giants did not wear Dark Caps at home until 1903 so that is the earliest it could be. I believe this to be a 1904 image, but it can only be 1903-1904 for sure based on the hat/socks.

Rhys

[BigJJ]

Thank you for your research - and especially Graig for your ball park research, locating and analyzing the changing configurations, ads, and surroundings of the early Polo Grounds. appreciate the time and mind. Based on the circa 1895 to 1903 Polo Ground configuration, Mathewson's joining the team in 1900, and the ads not matching for 1901 and 1903, we have ruled out all but 1902 and 1900. Have a strong feeling it is 1900. Continuing the hunt for that elusive 1900 ad photo.
Best,
Jon

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by BigJJ

Thank you for your research - and especially Graig for your ball park research, locating and analyzing the changing configurations, ads, and surroundings of the early Polo Grounds. appreciate the time and mind. Based on the circa 1895 to 1903 Polo Ground configuration, Mathewson's joining the team in 1900, and the ads not matching for 1901 and 1903, we have ruled out all but 1902 and 1900. Have a strong feeling it is 1900. Continuing the hunt for that elusive 1900 ad photo.
Best,
Jon

I wouldn't discount Rhys' opinion. The uniform is pretty important.

[prewarsports]

Dark hat + Dark Socks + at Polo Grounds = 1903 at earliest.

The did not wear those combos in any other year. That is more definative than the estimate year of the ad configurations.

[BigJJ]

Was writing as the other post came in.

It happens in this case, after much review, that the Polo Grounds stadium configuration that Mathewson is pictured in did not exist after the 1903 season.

Mathewson happens to be in a sweater which is not Giants issue, with regard to whether other items are, or are not, and specifically his hat, I do not know at this time. Perhaps the hat was Mathewson's as well.

It is clearly the Polo Grounds as configured from c.1895-1903. If we can just find the ads, can tell definatively whether it is 1902 or 1900. given a number of factors, we believe it is 1900.

Best,
Jon

[bmarlowe1]

Originally Posted by Jaybird

Here's a closeup of the glove from this photo on right, as compared to the 1906 photo that sold in Legendary last year. Looks like at least same manufacturer to me which is just more circumstantial information to bring this into his pro-career? I think 1904-05 sounds right as well.

FWIW - in 1906 the Giants uniforms said "World's Champions," not "New York." They also wore pillbox style dark caps in 1904 and 1905. The cap here (and in the photo that started this thread) is very different. This photo (just above) is very likely earlier than claimed, but is hard (for me) to date.

[Dto7]

Here's a photo of a football game at the Polo Grounds 9/27/1903 where the wall ads are in the opening photo.

[BigJJ]

Thanks for the clear shot indicating it is not 1903.
headed to the NY public library today to see if I can find more information.

[BigJJ]

Back from the library.
I think we need to update the uniform references we use.
I found a number of pictures of Giants in both 1900 and 1902 wearing dark plain caps and socks, as in the Mathewson photo. I did not check other years.
There is a big picture of Mathewson, in uniform, wearing such a dark plain cap and socks in the New York Daily News on May 9, 1902. The article that runs with the picture describes an away game in Chicago. I do not know if the photo is a file photo, or one from the game. The photo was reprinted for another article on June 29, 1902, so it may be a file photo, but that was for an away game as well, this time in Philadelphia, so I believe they used the photo as a file photo for Mathewson to print for away games. The News from April 17, 1902 showed the team ready to play its first home game, and the team was in white caps. I believe the away cap was a dark in 1902. or a plain dark cap was an alternate hat for home/road, but it should be formally listed in our references. more research is likely needed.
With regard to 1900 (and 1901) unfortunately the NY library does not have the Daily News if you can believe it. so, for 1900, I was left with small pictures from The New York Herald. I couldn't post because the pictures from The Herald are so small, but I could see on the small microfilm, Jack Doyle in play on April 12, 1900 in a plain dark cap. I do not know if this was a file photo or one from the current 1900 season.
Unfortunately, there were scant pictures of the ads at the Polo Grounds, so it is not any clearer to me when in the 1900-1902 timeframe the Mathewson photo could be from. I'm including 1901, as we do not know what month the 1901 Polo Grounds photo we have is from, though the liklihood remains 1900 or 1902.

[BigJJ]

full picture

[Dto7]

They did wear dark hats for road games in 1902