1907-1910 Weiser Wonder - Walter Johnson PC, new to the hobby

Hope this helps Leon, here's an article on the 1906-07 season in Weiser. Sounds as though the fans in Weiser did not really warm-up to the young man until his phenomenal 1907 season (last game for them July 21, 1907). No references to "Weiser Wonder". I agree it would not make sense to promote a young man who had just left your town. Sounds as though they tried to bribe him to stay, offering him a cigar store downtown.

http://cwcfamily.org/wj/ww2.htm

[Vintageismygame]

My only comment is . . . where is the quarter at?

Matt

[Runscott]

Johnson was a wise man, but a Weiser youth.

[honus94566]

Originally Posted by Runscott

Johnson was a wise man, but a Weiser youth.

It's pronounced "Weez-er", like the band. Just sayin'

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by honus94566

It's pronounced "Weez-er", like the band. Just sayin'

I pronounce 'wise' 'weez', don't you?

[z28jd]

Here is an interesting piece together of a couple old posts/quotes. Hopefully I'm interpreting these right as I don't collect postcards

1-The dividing line on Postcards started on March 1, 1907.

2-For a short time after that, postcards still had white space on front for writing purposes, basically printers using up what they had to save on money

3-If yours has the white space on front and the divide line, then it was probably made shortly after March 1st

The first two are facts, the third is an assumption based on those facts

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by z28jd

Here is an interesting piece together of a couple old posts/quotes. Hopefully I'm interpreting these right as I don't collect postcards

1-The dividing line on Postcards started on March 1, 1907.

I do collect Postcards and would like to weigh in with an opinion here.

I completely agree with you on point 1. March 1, 1907 is the beginning of the Divided Back Era for Postcards. Before then, it was not permitted to place correspondence on the back of the card, just the address. And, as you noted, this date also marks the appearance of the dividing line.

That, coupled with the postmark would indicate that the card was released between these two dates:

March 1, 1907 and November 30, 1910

The other points you made do make sense to me; however, I don't think narrowing the date range down further is possible without information I have not yet seen.

Best Regards,

Eric

[boneheadandrube]

Originally Posted by honus94566

It's pronounced "Weez-er", like the band. Just sayin'

Incorrect, just sayin

http://www.forvo.com/word/weiser/

[honus94566]

Originally Posted by boneheadandrube

Incorrect, just sayin

http://www.forvo.com/word/weiser/

Ja, I know how it's pronounced in German...

My family is all from Idaho and I dated a girl from Parma (just a few miles away from Weiser) for a number of years. Believe me, the town's pronounced "Weezer". At least by anyone living within a 200 mile radius of the area.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weiser,_Idaho
"Locals pronounce the city's name as "Wee-zer."

[frankbmd]

Originally Posted by honus94566

It's pronounced "Weez-er", like the band. Just sayin'

300 miles to the east of Weiser, I've seen a number of geezers, both kinds.

[Exhibitman]

Good points all. A copyright date is the date of creation of the image, not the date the object using the image was created. The copyright in this case is scratched into the negative of the image, which is why it is white on the field of the image. The PC is made using the image and other artwork. It had to be made around 1907 at the earliest because it would not have been a legal PC before that time, and obviously it was made before the post-date. Other than that, you cannot pin down any specifics from the item itself. You cannot simply assume that production ended when Johnson left the team; it may well have continued after they realized what a phenom he was.

[barrysloate]

Originally Posted by Runscott

Johnson was a wise man, but a Weiser youth.

Love it!

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Love it!

Don't encourage me - along with a sharp wit sometimes comes a sharp tongue. Disentangling the two has been a life-long battle

[barrysloate]

I hear you Scott.

And based on this discussion, I will agree with Rhys, that athough the window is 1907-1910, it would almost certainly be closer to the back end of it, when Johnson had already gained some national prominence.

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

And based on this discussion, I will agree with Rhys, that athough the window is 1907-1910, it would almost certainly be closer to the back end of it, when Johnson had already gained some national prominence.

Johnson's national prominence actually dates from the start of his career, practically from his first game with Washington. Some of the early coverage in the national sporting publications is surprising, with many quotes like this one from Wild Bill Donovan following Johnson's debut against the Tigers on August 2, 1907: "If nothing happens to that fellow, he will be a greater pitcher in two years than Mathewson ever dared to be. Mark that prediction." And here's Addie Joss after Johnson's second big league game, a 7-2 win at Cleveland: "That fellow is another Cy Young. I never saw a kid with more than he displayed." Certainly by the time Johnson had thrown three shutouts in four days in his first full year of 1908, anybody following baseball at all would have known all about him. As for the town of Weiser and their local boosters, I believe it would have been more than enough for one of their own to have ascended directly to the major leagues, together with the fulsome praise showered upon him immediately thereupon, to have provided reason enough to create the postcard.

[bcbgcbrcb]

Great postcard, Leon!

[Jaybird]

nice postcard, Leon. And great find. I agree with some of the others that it makes sense to promote the town you find the most famous person to come from the town and put him on a postcard. Then you sell that postcard with the Weiser Wonder on it.

I can tell you that there was a high school that was a rival to Grant Hill (of NBA Basketball fame) right near where I grew up. Everyone would talk about the school that Grant Hill was from. But that was after he made good in the NBA, not before.

Same thing with Jim Thorpe, PA being founded after he made it big.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Thorpe,_Pennsylvania

Happens a lot in sports when the player makes it big and the home town then claims them.

I'm sure many postcards are written well after the date that they were written but in my (limited) experience, I've seen the majority of postcards written around the date they were issued (within the year?) Very unscientific, I know, but that has been my experience.

[Leon]

There is no doubt this could be a 1910 postcard. It could also be a year or two earlier too. Until now it was thought to most likely be from the teens. Until anymore evidence is found it will be circa 1910, I think that nails it.

I do understand that even though Walter didn't have a great record his very first years in WA he was still a great pitcher at that time. His team, not so great.

[Jaybird]

Originally Posted by Leon

There is no doubt this could be a 1910 postcard. It could also be a year or two earlier too. Until now it was thought to most likely be from the teens. Until anymore evidence is found it will be circa 1910, I think that nails it.

I do understand that even though Walter didn't have a great record his very first years in WA he was still a great pitcher at that time. His team, not so great.

I think that's very sound.

As to the point made by a poster about the white on the front of the postcard dating it to a certain era, that's just not the case. It just has to do with a certain aspect ratio image being used and not cropping it to fit on the postcard. You see it on this postcard as well which I date to around 1913-1914 (no earlier).

That would make sense if it was the town where Johnson was born and raised. Hometown boy makes good, etc. but he was from Olinda/Fullerton Union High School in California.

He only played in Weiser for two seasons. Supposition: it may have been produced to entice Johnson to stay in Weiser, Idaho in 1907.

Great article by Hankphenom on his years in Idaho, did not mean to post that and omit credit for the article, my apologies.

One more thing the PC's writer Walter Watkins mentions a town in Wyoming named Midway. Can't find anything about it outside Midway Basin in Yellowstone National Park. Does anyone have an ideas?

[packs]

After doing some research I could definitely see the card being made in 1907. Johnson was signed to a professional contract and then made his Major League debut less than 2 weeks from the time he left Weiser's team. And he only delayed his debut so that he could finish the season with Weiser. Since Weiser wasn't even considered a professional team, it would have been a huge to-do that one of its players was on his way to the majors.

[paul]

I can't believe no one else has noticed that this postcard was addressed to fellow Washington Senator Frank Howard.

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by pariah1107

Hope this helps Leon, here's an article on the 1906-07 season in Weiser. Sounds as though the fans in Weiser did not really warm-up to the young man until his phenomenal 1907 season (last game for them July 21, 1907). No references to "Weiser Wonder". I agree it would not make sense to promote a young man who had just left your town. Sounds as though they tried to bribe him to stay, offering him a cigar store downtown.

http://cwcfamily.org/wj/ww2.htm

That's my article. Here's a link to the full piece, with intro, etc.
http://cwcfamily.org/wj/ww0.htm

As for the point about not promoting Johnson after he left town, I don't believe they would have been promoting him UNTIL he had left town and begun making a name for himself in Washington, at which point he would have become the biggest thing to ever come out of there and worth promoting. There's no doubt in my mind that this postcard was issued after Johnson had "made good," as they used to call it, in the American League. Of course, he did that almost immediately.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

That's my article. Here's a link to the full piece, with intro, etc.
http://cwcfamily.org/wj/ww0.htm

As for the point about not promoting Johnson after he left town, I don't believe they would have been promoting him UNTIL he had left town and begun making a name for himself in Washington, at which point he would have become the biggest thing to ever come out of there and worth promoting. There's no doubt in my mind that this postcard was issued after Johnson had "made good," as they used to call it, in the American League. Of course, he did that almost immediately.

I don't know Hank. He was some really big news in Weiser, as you well know, and I would think they might have wanted to capitalize on his stardom at any time after 1907..... And actually, and this might not be correct, but it's there, baseball-reference has him as being on Washington, at least a little bit, in 1907, 1908, 1909, (all of the years in question here). During those years on Washington he had a combined W-L of 32 and 48, so capitalizing on that record seems strange. To me it seems whomever put this out might have wanted to capitalize on his Weiser stardom and not his less than stellar play in Washington during that period. I certainly appreciate your ongoing participation in a fascinating discussion. Thank you so much.

Who knows, maybe another PC will pop up with an earlier postmark and this date can be put to rest. Until now I think many collectors were dating this postcard quite a bit later.

[honus94566]

Leon, do you know how many known examples of this postcard there are? Do you own the one in the OP? Pretty cool piece, thanks for posting it up.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by honus94566

Leon, do you know how many known examples of this postcard there are? Do you own the one in the OP? Pretty cool piece, thanks for posting it up.

In my searches I have seen maybe 3-4 of these postcards. There are probably a few more than that known but I am not sure. Yes, I own the one in the original post. Thanks for the kind words. I do think it's a great looking postcard and with the Weiser postmark all the better.

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by Leon

I don't know Hank. He was some really big news in Weiser, as you well know, and I would think they might have wanted to capitalize on his stardom at any time after 1907..... And actually, and this might not be correct, but it's there, baseball-reference has him as being on Washington, at least a little bit, in 1907, 1908, 1909, (all of the years in question here). During those years on Washington he had a combined W-L of 32 and 48, so capitalizing on that record seems strange. To me it seems whomever put this out might have wanted to capitalize on his Weiser stardom and not his less than stellar play in Washington during that period. I certainly appreciate your ongoing participation in a fascinating discussion. Thank you so much.

Who knows, maybe another PC will pop up with an earlier postmark and this date can be put to rest. Until now I think many collectors were dating this postcard quite a bit later.

There's almost no chance this postcard was made during his time at Weiser, in my opinion. He was never called "The Weiser Wonder" during that time, but WAS called that almost immediately thereafter in Washington and elsewhere around the American League. And despite his deceptive 5-9 record in 1907, he was considered in many quarters a "Wonder" from the very start of his career. He had the 4th-best ERA in the American League at 1.88 and finished 2nd behind Waddell in SO/IP. He finished every game he started except his first, and pitched two consecutive shutouts toward the end of the year. Five of his losses were by 1 run for a 49-102 team. Turn those into victories and he would have been 10-4, not a bad first two months in the big leagues. It's entirely possible for this postcard to have been produced sometime in the latter part of 1907, the town capitalizing on the nickname he had often been called beginning with his debut on August 2. Or it could have been made at any time in the years following, up to late 1910. Regardless, Leon has brought us significant new information about a "WONDERful" (sorry, couldn't resist) card.

[Hankphenom]

Speaking of Weiser, here's the coolest non-baseball PC in my collection: The middle of this unfolds, beginning with the picture of the "New Union Station," into a 12-panel accordion of notable places in Weiser, including a 3-panel panorama of the town in which you might be able to spot part of the ballfield if you knew where to look. And what's the date of the postmark? June 17, 1907, a month before Johnson stepped into that station and off to his great adventure. The station was brand new in 1907, and had been completely restored shortly before my visit to Weiser in 1995. It was a real trip for me to stand on the platform of that station, looking east as Walter would have done, wondering what was in store for him. He had never been further east than Kansas, and now at 19 years old he's going to the nation's capital to play in the major leagues. The other side is postmarked July something, perhaps on its way to its destination of Washington, Penn., on the same train as Walter.

[prewarsports]

Photo used to make the postcard dates to 1907

Postcard itself is of a later date, almost certainly 1909+, no way these were made when he was at Weiser.

Rhys

[packs]

Why do you say that though? Weiser was a nothing team in a nothing league with no star power at all. Now all of a sudden their best player is on his way to the Majors and making his debut 2 weeks after playing for them. Seems likely that they would have produced the card. It would be like if someone from my Little League team signed a contract and was on the mound 2 weeks later. I would think the town would rally behind them just for making it and not wait for them to be a star, no?

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by prewarsports

Postcard itself is of a later date, almost certainly 1909+

Rhys,

I am not disputing you; however, am wondering what leads you to believe this.

Please let me know.

Respectfully,

Eric

[Eric72]

For starters, I agree completely with those who think this is a great card. From what I have been able to determine thus far, it is most likely an extremely scarce issue. I have seen mention of no more than three known examples here, and would not dispute that number at this point in time.

I also thank those who weighed in with comments regarding my opinions on it (along with its newer, white-bordered counterpart) and hope that I am making a positive contribution to this conversation.

I fully understand that pinpointing exactly when it was issued has the potential to be quite important and, as a result, have been doing a bit more research on the topic. Along the way, I have found two things which piqued my interest. If anyone can shed more light on these, I would be most grateful.

First, according to an older listing by Sotheby’s, this card was produced in June of 1907. I am unsure as to how they deduced this and would like to know the board’s opinion here. Granted, this appears to be the same signed version which was later offered in Goodwin's 2010 auction; however, a link to the Sotheby's info appears below.

http://www.sothebys.com/en/catalogue...08385.html/98/

Also, I was looking through some old Net54 threads and found this:

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...=120189&page=2

I have reached out to the person who left post #20 and I am trying to gather more information on the photo posted there. If anyone else might be able to provide insight as to where it came from, it would be greatly appreciate it.

Thanks to all for reading through a long post. I sincerely hope I am not bothering anybody by trying to discover more about this tremendous postcard and attempting to ascertain, with greater certainty, when it was issued.

Best Regards,

Eric

[Bicem]

Wouldn't surprise me if Sotheby's just made up that date based on the copyright date.

Here's the auction link to the cabinet photo Eric...

http://www.legendaryauctions.com/Lot...entoryid=65860

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by Bicem

Wouldn't surprise me if Sotheby's just made up that date based on the copyright date.

Here's the auction link to the cabinet photo Eric...

http://www.legendaryauctions.com/Lot...entoryid=65860

Jeff,

Thanks for the link. I have yet to look into it thoroughly; however, shall enjoy learning more about the cabinet card. Hopefully, along the way, I will be able to glean a bit of info regarding Leon's Postcard. They certainly appear to have been created from the same photograph.

I also appreciate hearing your take on Sotheby's. Unfortunately, given some of the Auction House inaccuracies I have seen discussed here recently, it does seem possible that the date was nothing more than a guess on their part. It is strange that they zeroed in on a particular month without supporting evidence, though. Perhaps I am naive; however, that seems a touch reckless on their part.

In any event, I sincerely thank you and truly appreciate your help.

Best Regards,

Eric

[Jaybird]

Originally Posted by Bicem

Wouldn't surprise me if Sotheby's just made up that date based on the copyright date.

Here's the auction link to the cabinet photo Eric...

http://www.legendaryauctions.com/Lot...entoryid=65860

I agree. You can't use an auction house as a base for factual information. Sometimes they do their research and their information is based on fact but often it is just a claim made to make the best possible sale.

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by Jaybird

I agree. You can't use an auction house as a base for factual information. Sometimes they do their research and their information is based on fact but often it is just a claim made to make the best possible sale.

Jason,

I understand and completely agree. This seems like a variation of, "buy the card and not the holder." In this case, though, I guess it would be, "buy the item and not the auction house."

Having said that, it did pique my interest to see that they specifically noted the card was produced in June of 1907.

My sincerest thanks and appreciation.

Best Regards,

Eric

[Hankphenom]

Sotheby's DID make up that date of June 1907. That was my consignment, and I certainly didn't give them that date, which I would have known to be almost certainly erroneous. But at least Sotheby's did better than PSA, whose "expert" pegged it as 1901 when 30 seconds of research would have revealed Johnson to have been 13 years old!

[Abravefan11]

As Hank and Scott both said earlier in the thread, Johnson was given the nickname the "Weiser Wonder" after he left Weiser. The image below is from an article in the Idaho Statesman August 11, 1907.

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

Sotheby's DID make up that date of June 1907. That was my consignment, and I certainly didn't give them that date, which I would have known to be almost certainly erroneous. But at least Sotheby's did better than PSA, whose "expert" pegged it as 1901 when 30 seconds of research would have revealed Johnson to have been 13 years old!

Hank,

Thank you very much for filling in this piece of the Sotheby's/June 1907 puzzle for me...I am certainly convinced they should have done their homework better before making such a claim.

And as for PSA, I am speechless as to why they noted this as being a 1901 issue...I still can't wrap my mind around that one.

In any event, I wholeheartedly thank you, for everything.

I will see what else I am able to discover regarding the postcard in the OP.

Best Regards,

Eric