A McCreachery Card Theory

[Matthew H]

Maybe they were poking fun at his age, maybe they thought he looked More like a manager then a player in that pose... Has anyone thought of that yet?

[cyseymour]

Originally Posted by Matthew H

Maybe they were poking fun at his age, maybe they thought he looked More like a manager then a player in that pose... Has anyone thought of that yet?

Matt, the trouble is that the wrong dude cracked the code of the McCreachery name... it was supposed to be one of the OJ book authors. God must've forgotten his footnotes.

I wasn't supposed to be making landmark discoveries in the hobby until my postcount cracked a hundred at least.

[RCMcKenzie]

Cy,

This thread is starting to remind me of the scene in "Back to School" where Rodney Dangerfield hires Kurt Vonnegut to write his paper for him on a book by Vonnegut. Vonnegut writes the paper and Dangerfield gets a C and the teacher tells Dangerfield that he doesn't know anything about Vonnegut.

I studied English Lit at Tulane in the 80's and have rarely used what I learned there, until this thread. However, I do not think the makers of the tobacco inserts were trying to write "Ode on a Grecian Urn". I think they just messed up. I will say that I have never seen anyone reference Jane Austin on here before, but I have been away for awhile and Runscott may have done it.

[cyseymour]

RCMcKenzie,

If you choose to think that it's an error card, you're more than welcome to. You didn't think that when the thread started and were proposing the name was a reference to his drinking, but clearly you've changed your mind.

Is it impossible to believe that someone who has a passion for etymology and 19th Century literature might be able to realize certain meanings of a card that had previously been unrealized? Or that perhaps I was able to use my unique lens to integrate the ideas of different board members?

Per the Grecian Urn comment, perhaps you underestimate the intelligence of people from that time period. Unless you feel that they are truly lacking the wisdom you gained from watching Rodney Dangerfield.

[Matthew H]

I'm not saying I think "The McCreachery Code" is impossible, it's just IMO reaching a bit. It's incredible that in the 1880s they were able to create such a comprehensive set that covered major and minor baseball from coast to coast in such a short period of time. They misspelled some names, used the wrong photo sometimes, poked fun at a few players, and you're suggesting they inserted a riddle card. I personally need more evidence than what's presented. Everything else above is fact.

[Matthew H]

Nm

[cyseymour]

Originally Posted by insidethewrapper

On page 452 of the Old Judge Book it states that Detroit and Indianapolis were photographed in 1888 by Fearnaught Studios in Indianapolis. As stated before, maybe they were in the studio together that day in April, 1888 and there was a mix-up or mistake between the teams at the studio. I also see that a Spence Indy Manager OJ card was not made in 1888. Why ? Maybe McGeachey was going to be the manager and the card was simply misspelled.

More research will be needed to see if McGeachey, a Indy player, was being considered as a manager during this time period and also when Spence was hired as manager.

Or maybe Indy didn't have a manager at the time and the joke was that White was the manager because he was so old?

Also, White was a famous player who had been in the league for twenty years. How could they possibly fail to recognize his picture? It's about as likely that someone would mistake Derek Jeter for Tony LaRussa.

[cyseymour]

Originally Posted by Matthew H

I'm not saying I think "The McCreachery Code" is impossible, it's just IMO reaching a bit. It's incredible that in the 1880s they were able to create such a comprehensive set that covered major and minor baseball from coast to coast in such a short period of time. They misspelled some names, used the wrong photo sometimes, poked fun at a few players, and you're suggesting they inserted a riddle card. I personally need more evidence than what's presented. Everything else above is fact.

Here's the links:

http://www.thinkbabynames.com/meaning/0/Chery
http://www.thinkbabynames.com/meaning/1/Mccrea

What more evidence do you need? A handwritten statement from the producers of the card that it was an inside joke? An X'd out photo found in Deacon White's tomb, held by a mummified version of Deacon, with his face glaring angrily at the card?

It's etymology. The definitions of the words are sitting right there for you. It tells you what it means. The work is already done, my friend.

[barrysloate]

I'm enjoying this thread immensely as it is one of the more scholarly ones we've had on this board. Wish I had a theory about the card, but unfortunately I don't. However, it would surprise if the people in charge of getting these cards manufactured and out to market were literate enough to provide hidden riddles and biblical references, or be acquainted with Old English and Latin phrases. I'm guessing there is a simpler answer than that. These were blue collar guys who probably didn't have Ivy League diplomas.

[Joe_G.]

Fascinating thread, I thank all contributors (you included cyseymour). I was not trying to disprove McCreachery as a riddle in my last post, but instead the other half of your theory. I'll explain tonight when time permits, I need to report to work. Keep it coming!

[novakjr]

been away from this one a while too...Cy, you're getting kinda crazy with the riddles... Anyways, I only posed the "creachery" possibility, because it is actually a word, no riddle there. The main reason I went with the Old-English translation of "hryre" for it, was for dramatic effect...

The creachery theory was just that, a theory, nothing more, nothing less. It has nothing to do with decline in his play, but pointed more towards the fact that 3 teams either went under, or lost ML status, during his tenures with them.. Possibly just a simple joke about him being bad luck.

However, as the SABR article pointed out, he was a very controversial player, and it's possible that some viewed his actions/views(especially regarding player rights and the reserve clause) as destructive to the teams he played for(or the game in general).

Aside from the probability that it's just some error with no explanation. It's nice to at least study the name, to see if at least some sort of tie can be made between the name and the players circumstances.

While the "mccrea" theory seems somewhat farther fetched than the "creachery" one. I wouldn't 100% write it off, although it's clearly taking up the rear, as far as possibilities go.. Riddles seem far less likely than joke, or simple error. Also, with only one known, who's to say that wasn't the only one in the first place? Without knowing who that card was intended for(I'm guessing it wasn't a public release), it will be hard to pin down the exact circumstances behind the name..


Oh my. With a little thought, creacherous behavior could be viewed as anarchy, and with Mc meaning son of...Maybe Deacon was a biker and the original "son of anarchy"..

[cyseymour]

Originally Posted by Joe_G.

Fascinating thread, I thank all contributors (you included cyseymour). I was not trying to disprove McCreachery as a riddle in my last post, but instead the other half of your theory. I'll explain tonight when time permits, I need to report to work. Keep it coming!

Joe,

I think you are most likely correct about the other half of the theory - i.e., that the card was not produced after the 1888 season. Considering that Indy did not have a manager in spring 1888, the card was indeed most likely produced in the spring, hence the joke that White was the manager.

As you say yourself, it does not disprove the McCreachery as a riddle theory.

Cheers

[cyseymour]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

I'm enjoying this thread immensely as it is one of the more scholarly ones we've had on this board. Wish I had a theory about the card, but unfortunately I don't. However, it would surprise if the people in charge of getting these cards manufactured and out to market were literate enough to provide hidden riddles and biblical references, or be acquainted with Old English and Latin phrases. I'm guessing there is a simpler answer than that. These were blue collar guys who probably didn't have Ivy League diplomas.

Barry,

Considered yourself potentially surprised, then. People back then were pretty smart. There were no stupid movies to watch, no ESPN - you learned french and latin in school and the teachers were strict! As a society, we have definitely gotten stupider and our attention span has decreased dramatically.

When I do things like study french or 19th century lit, heck, I am just trying to catch up to those people... but they were still way ahead of me! And without the internet as a source, as well as other minds, we would never have gotten it.

As I wrote earlier, the playing of word games and riddles, while left to a few nerds like myself in 2012, was a popular pastime in the 19th Century. Pick up a 19th Century novel, and you'll see the language was a lot more complex. They make us look like a bunch of dolts, quite frankly.

[cyseymour]

David,

Here's another time when the term "Machree" was used in a subliminal manner. Pariah1107 dug this up.

http://www.traditionalmusic.co.uk/fo...er_Machree.htm

Who was Mother Machree? Machree=Son of God, so Mother Machree was Mother Mary!

So it's very viable, based on how people thought in 1887, and their superior intellectual abilities (if not in regards to technology, then at least vis-a-vis literature), that McCrea was also being used subliminally in the faux-name McCreachery. Not only does it line up directly with the defining personal character trait of Deacon Jones, it is also the only viable explanation for the name on the card.

Add in that remaining letters "Chery" means "dear, sweet" and it is blatantly obvious to me that the name is a reference to "Sweet Jesus", "Sweet Son of God", however you want to put it. How it's continued to evade the realization of the other members of this board is the only remaining mystery in my mind.

But that might be a reflection of some points I made to Barry about our declining intelligence levels! It is also a reflection, I think, that it is hard for people to grasp, in our lowest common denominator thought processes of 2012, why anyone would choose to create an esoteric riddle or wordplay in 1888.

[barrysloate]

Agreed that people took education more seriously back then. Today, you're mocked for being an intellectual. So no argument there. I'm just not certain your theory is beyond dispute. It's an interesting one for sure, but I can't assume that's exactly what they were thinking. But who knows. As I said, this is a great thread.

[Abravefan11]

For what it's worth, while at the library I went through a number of dictionaries from the time period and none included the word creachery. Several did include the word creachy.

creachy,
1. See creechy
2. Broken down, dilapidated, infirm; sickly, ailing

creechy,
1. Of things: in bad repair. Of persons: poorly, weak, sickly, ailing, feeble.

[barrysloate]

Was it possible that Deacon White was grouchy, or crotchety?

[cyseymour]

Barry,

Let me also note that, like today, tobacco was a big business back then. The founder, Eben Goodwin, amassed a fortune. He died in 1871 and left the business to his nephew, obviously much younger. It is not unlikely that the nephew, and those who worked as managers beneath him and enjoyed large salaries, were from the aristocratic, well-educated class.

[cyseymour]

Originally Posted by Abravefan11

For what it's worth, while at the library I went through a number of dictionaries from the time period and none included the word creachery. Several did include the word creachy.

creachy,
1. See creechy
2. Broken down, dilapidated, infirm; sickly, ailing

creechy,
1. Of things: in bad repair. Of persons: poorly, weak, sickly, ailing, feeble.

Thank you, Tim! Great research! So we can see that from the double-entendre that he was a Dear Son of God, but also appeared broken down and sickly, hence the reference to him being the Mgr. Indianapolis.

[insidethewrapper]

Joe: Has only 1 card been discovered of this "White-McCreachery" card ? Was it ever put into cigarette packs ? If not,should it be part of the OJ set ?

It was either 1) a mistake or error card and pulled from production or 2) it was a joke or Novelty Card and maybe given to White himself and never really a card for the public to collect, therefore not part of the set.

Researching some newspapers I have at home, Indy did have a manager (Spence) during March of 1888. So he was the manager when the photos were taken and distributed. One question answered.


Last question today : Who owns this card ? Has it ever been up for auction ?

[cyseymour]

Let me make some Etymological observations regarding the word "Creachy"

There were two disparate definitions:

To age
To fall from grace

In my view, the verb is "to creach" originally meant "to fall from grace" and later became adapted to mean "to age", as in, "to age is to fall from the grace of God."

Hence the Deacon White joke of him being the "Dear Son of God", because he had aged and now seemed better fit to become a manager, he had fallen from the grace of God.

Nowadays, the term creachie means creeky, as in "old and creeky". Back then, spellings were far less standard, and there was lots of interchangability between ch/k and ph/f, etc.

[Matthew H]

Originally Posted by cyseymour

Barry,

Let me also note that, like today, tobacco was a big business back then. The founder, Eben Goodwin, amassed a fortune. He died in 1871 and left the business to his nephew, obviously much younger. It is not unlikely that the nephew, and those who worked as managers beneath him and enjoyed large salaries, were from the aristocratic, well-educated class.

Wow, I finally get it. It was Eben Goodwin's nephew and his aristocratic upper management cronies responsible for this riddle meant as a slight toward Deacon Whites non existent downfall, as well as poetic praise toward him being the beloved son of God, oh, and also a slur toward his non-Irish decent.

Also, no need for your cryptic insults toward the intelligence of board members who don't agree with you. We already know you're the riddle master.

Lastly, all of what you posted is possible. Some of it seems probable. The big turn off for me is the definitive statements being made about what some unknown person was thinking 120 years ago.

[cyseymour]

Originally Posted by Matthew H

Wow, I finally get it. It was Eben Goodwin's nephew and his aristocratic upper management cronies responsible for this riddle meant as a slight toward Deacon Whites non existent downfall, as well as poetic praise toward him being the beloved son of God, oh, and also a slur toward his non-Irish decent.

Also, no need for your cryptic insults toward the intelligence of board members who don't agree with you. We already know you're the riddle master.

Lastly, all of what you posted is possible. Some of it seems probable. The big turn off for me is the definitive statements being made about what some unknown person was thinking 120 years ago.

Whatever.

[teetwoohsix]

I like it when people toss a decent theory out there because it seems to get the investigative part of people going. Most of the time, especially with century + old cards, there's very limited information. Tossing ideas and theories out there may help us stumble upon the right answer.

It reminds me of the T202 Joe Jackson sliding thread. Now, I know many still may not believe it's him, but I sure am convinced; thanks to some very good and thorough researching by various board members, along with a great theory by the OP.

I can't say much about this card, I don't know enough about these cards to comment, but I love these types of threads

Sincerely, Clayton

[Joe_G.]

Matt, I thoroughly enjoyed your post, thank you!

CySeymour,
The problem resides largely in your delivery. Most of your theories were wild pitches yet you proclaimed from the onset that you had "The Real Story of McCreacherie (sic)". Your position on the name changed with nearly every post, yet each time it was/is presented in a "matter of fact" manner. A review of your own posts becomes comical. To keep this to a reasonable length, some of the quotes are paraphrased.

Originally Posted by cyseymour

Deacon played poorly . . . McCreacherie(sic) was the result of Irish slander mocking Deacon's religiosity . . . the McCreachery card is derogatory in nature, towards both the Irish and White himself. This is most certainly the reason for its very low print run.

It took several posts to convey that we (the authors of the Old Judge book) weren't trying to suggest Deacon had played poorly. Yet you clung to this for many posts.

Originally Posted by cyseymour

If "to creature" means to drink a lot, and the Irish were known to drink a lot, then the name "McCreachery" could have been a joke that meant "drinks so much that he's Irish".

You seem rather surprised to learn later in the thread that Deacon didn't drink (you actually knew very little about Deacon and the Wolverines). I would think some knowledge of Deacon and the way his peers perceived him would help decipher the cards true meaning but that wasn't going to stop you.

Originally Posted by cyseymour

So it seems that they were calling him Irish via blaming him for the downfall of the Detroit Wolverines. Wow.

Deacon was responsible for the downfall of the Wolverines?? Oh boy.

Originally Posted by cyseymour

Another interpretation:

McCrea in gaelic: "Son of Grace"
Chery in french: "Dear, Darling", aka "mon cherie"

So McCreachery could have meant something along the lines of "Dear Son of Grace". Which would make sense since he was a devout Christian.

I think we have a winner!

Originally Posted by cyseymour

"McCreachery" means "Sweet Son of God". It is a double-entendre with the word "creach" to describe the demise of the teams he's played for, because "Creach" means "fall from grace". Get it?

These OJ producers sure were smart!

Originally Posted by cyseymour

It was printed in 1888, per design of the card. White had a poor year in 1888 and the team disbanded.

Originally Posted by cyseymour

But the double-entendre of "Sweet Son of God/Fall from Grace" is very, very on target, not only with the life and times of Deacon White, his poor play, and his religiosity, and the demise of his team, but also consistent with the joke of calling him a manager of Indianapolis. The narrative makes perfect sense.

As far as whether Boston wanted him, I wouldn't know, but whether did they did or not, it doesn't change the story that he had fallen very hard from his championship days just a year earlier. He had gone from "preacher" to "creacher" very quickly. That is the reflection that the card is commenting on.

OK, problem with previous quotes is that very little of it is true. I tried clearing this up on my post stamped 12/10 @11:24pm. The card was issued when Deacon was playing well and one of the few bright spots on the Detroit team. His batting in 1888 was second to only Dan Brouthers!

Despite all this ribbing, I very much enjoy your contribution to the topic. Your knowledge of 19th century English, Latin, and French far exceeds my own so I appreciate what you bring to the table.

If we were to release a 2nd edition of the book, somewhere within its roughly 500 pages, there might be a sentence or two mentioning the possibility of McCreachery being a riddle of sorts. Question is, will you have your final answer ready before we go to press?

Originally Posted by cyseymour

One more thing:

Deacon White career OPS .740
Ed Delahanty career OPS .916

To each his own, my friend.

One more thing:

Deacon White = Best bare handed catcher to play the game. His play was legendary during the 1870s, a decade in which catching was deemed, by far, the most important position on the field. He then re-invented himself as one of the games better 3rd basemen to extend his career another 10 years. Led a long, clean, and virtuous life.

Delahanty = Great hitter but unfortunately drunk and disorderly. Jumped (or was thrown) into Niagra River just upstream the Falls, cutting his life and baseball career short.

To each his own, my friend

[Joe_G.]

As for the McCreachery card rarity, it is not alone within the N172 set. There are a good number of poses with only single copies known. The obvious starting point would be the California League cards for which many have only one known copy. This extends will into the "Significant Rarities" and beyond. Some of the toughest players in the set are only catalogued as having one, two, or three poses when they were likely issued 5. There are undoubtedly many neat poses that have long been lost to time (what a shame).

As for the McCreachery card, I do believe it was distributed in packages of cigarettes. The where-a-bouts of the copy shown earlier in this thread are known. I don't believe we will be seeing it hit the market anytime soon.

[tonyo]

The thing I most appreciate about this thread is learning more about Deacon White and they way the game was played and the leagues were run back in the 19th. Mostly thru the sabr article linked by David, but some tidbits here and there thru the posts as well.

I'm still trying to wrap my imagination around a catcher with no glove. Tough as nails?

[cyseymour]

Joe,

I feel that you are way off base. As new information arises, I am willing to integrate it. Many people had different ideas on the card. It was a collaborative effort by the board. Sure, some posters delivered ideas that were later disproven, i.e. the drinking or the downfall of the Wolverines comments, but that is part of the process to find the truth as other posters chime in with new information. You drum up a bunch of old posts from the thread, but it doesn't disprove anything I'm saying now about the name McCreachery or the answer to the riddle.

If I stuck rigidly to old, disproven ideas of the card as new information became available, would you consider that more commendable? You ask me, is my final answer ready? Well, my final answer is ready. It was a riddle - the name was a double-entendre based on McCrea/Chery and Chreach, "Mc" meaning son, Crea being "God" and "Chery" meaning dear/sweet , making McCree/Chery mean Dear Son of God/Sweet Jesus, and then "Creach" a reference to aging as a fall from the Grace of God. It is very clever and fits perfectly within the context of the joke on the card seeing that he is presented as being a manager.

I realized the double-entendre on the second page of this thread and have stuck with it as the answer, for good reason. You disproved the notion posted by David N. that it was in reference to the downfall of the Detroit Wolverines, and I accepted that. As I demonstrated in my post #71 at 12:10PM yesterday, the type of downfall suggested by the term creach refers to a fall from grace via aging. It fits perfectly with your own suggestion in the OJ book regarding White being tabbed the Indy Mgr as a joke on his age.

I have outlined a tremendous amount of historical, social and etymological evidence to support my theory. Not only has no one been able to disprove it, nor present a credible alternate theory, but it is clear that "Dear Son of God/Fall from Grace" is highly logical and humorous, and it fits directly within the context of the card and the social and historical backdrop of the era. Can you find any legitimate reason why the riddle would not be true?

If you do revise the book, and mention therein that it's a riddle, which I feel you have an obligation to do, then please be sure to also explain it was a double-entendre based on the root words McCrea/Chery and Creach, meaning "Dear Son of God/Fall from Grace" so that people can understand it. It's only fair, and I feel you owe that to me as the discoverer of the riddle. Without an decent explanation, it pays short shrift to the discovery, as well as to the card itself.

------------------------------------

As for your little quip about the Delahanty card, I'm not sure why you would want to come on and take a shot at my card. It clearly has nothing to do with the thread. I probably shouldn't have gotten drawn into it, but I do consider Buck Ewing and King Kelly to be the greatest catchers of the 19th Century, and the statistics bear that out. White wasn't quite on that level, but he was very good. Many 19th cent. catchers suffered from dementia (there was a recent article in the NYTimes on that), and that may have been the source of some of White's strange ideas later on, which is sad. As for Delahanty, he led the league in OPS four times and posted an OPS above 1.000 six times, and was the greatest field player of his era.

Just a personal point - I am not out here trying to be your nemesis. From everything I can tell, you seem to be a pretty good guy. But if someone sends a zinger my way, whether about a Delahanty card, Rodney Dangerfield line, etc., then they should expect to receive a zinger right back. Within the lines of civility and decency, of course. It's only fair and part of a lively exchange. But hopefully we can all work together to share information and ideas as part of an online community of collectors, and conversation doesn't have to be restricted to the intellectual realm of solely a few book authors.

[Matthew H]

Cy, I like the idea that the name could possibly have something to do with his religious beliefs. People already knew him as "Deacon", and I'd like to believe people were clever enough to create something with similar meaning. I still believe it was a jab at his appearance, so with the fictitious name actually having meaning... That would be pretty cool.

If you look closer at pg87 of the OJ book, you'll notice it says "...the oldest player in the league, was apparently better suited to manage..."

No need for etymology, see the standard definition. It seems to me this was left open to interpretation.

Also, I'm pretty sure Joe was complementing your beautiful Delahanty card, offering to trade one of his Deacon White cards for it. I'm surprised you weren't able to decipher that one. Personally, I'd hold him to that statement, but that's just me.

[cyseymour]

Let me chime in with one more etymological observation:

"Chreacher" is probably also the Gaelic for the English word "creature".

Definition of CREATURE

1
: something created either animate or inanimate: as
a : a lower animal; especially : a farm animal
b : a human being
c : a being of anomalous or uncertain aspect or nature
2
: one that is the servile dependent or tool of another :

So the word "creature" is really something that intends certain animalistic, earthly characterics, as opposed to the pure and divine. This lends even more creedence to that the idea that the McCreachery double-entendre is a study of opposites between the Divine and Earthly.

McCrea/Chery: Dear Son of God - Divine
Chreach: Fall from Grace - Earthly

This is completely consistent with the style humor that Old Judge displayed in many of their other joke cards, from the Whitney with Dog (loyal/disloyal) card to the Nicol and Reilly (tall/short) card. One could also argue that by putting the biggest superstars of their respective teams, Ewing and Williamson, in photos with their mascots is a study of opposites, at least in some degree.

They have also previously shown a penchant for wordplay, exhibit the Poor Man card.

This demonstrates that the double-entendre fits perfectly not only with the rest of the card, as well as the personality of Deacon White, but also with the comedic styled tendencies of the Old Judge producers.

[Troy Kirk]

Here is what the card is:

1) Portrait photo of Deacon White
2) 1888 Old Judge card
3) Wrong team name – Indianapolis instead of Detroit
4) Wrong position – Manager instead of 3rd base
5) Wrong player name – McGreachery instead of White

There are three errors on the card, team name, position, and player name.
Old Judge made errors in team names at times (Lady Baldwin with Cincinnati, Kid Baldwin with Detroit are examples). Offhand, I don’t know of any other examples of wrong positions for players, but there probably were some (Jay and Joe would know better than me on this). There were plenty of misspelled player names in the Old Judge set.

OK, let’s sum up the possibilities for this card.

1) Traditional theory – the card is an unintentional error card, explained as follows:

a. Picture was taken in Indianapolis, so wrong team name of Indianapolis was put on the card by mistake.
b. Picture is a portrait, which were usually (not always) reserved for managers, thus the manager designation.
c. Name was intended to be a real Indianapolis player name of McGeachy, which is close to McGreachery.

Pros for traditional theory:

• Each error is possible, based on other errors within the Old Judge set.

Cons for traditional theory:

• Hard to believe all of these errors were accidentally applied to the same card.

2) CySeymour’s theory – the card is an intentional error card, explained as follows:

a. The name is meant to be a riddle about Deacon White – CySeymour’s current breakdown of the riddle is that it was a double-entendre based on the root words McCrea/Chery and Creach, meaning "Dear Son of God/Fall from Grace".
b. The manager part was intended to be a joke, based on White’s old age.
c. No explanation for the team name of Indianapolis.

Pros for the riddle theory:

• Because there are so many errors on this card, maybe the made-up name was done intentionally and included some hidden meaning (whether CySeymour is right or not in his interpretation is still open to conjecture).

Cons for the riddle theory:

• There are no other riddles in the Old Judge set, so why would they do this for this card.

To me, the interesting part of CySeymour’s theory is that the card may have been an intentionally created error card. That is still a possibility.

I don’t think it was, and I don’t think his hidden meaning is correct even if it was (I think the card is spelled with a “G” and not a “C” after the Mc, which would throw off his hidden meanings), plus I really don’t believe someone would have thought White had fallen from grace at that point in time or any other for that matter. He was a Hall of Fame-calibre player, which is why he is finally in now.

All this riddle stuff sounds more like trying to turn an unusual Old Judge card into a Da Vinci Code or National Treasure riddle. Those made for good fiction, but I don’t see any basis of this in reality with this card.

[cyseymour]

I can't respond to every post of everyone who chooses to believe or disbelieve my theory, but let me just say that the idea it would be coincidence that the root words of a fake, created name used as a substitute for someone named "Deacon" - that those root words would randomly mean "Dear Son of Jesus" - is highly implausible. It almost must have been intentional.

Let me also add that Deacon White's extreme religiosity was far outside of the lock-step for what was the fashionable thinking at the time regarding Philosophy and Religion. Prior to the mid-19th century, philosophical thought stemmed mainly from the Greeks, with Socrates and Aristotle, who believed in a cool, dispassionate understanding of the world. They chose to believe in God, and used the Pythagorean Theorem as prove against skeptics that there was indeed an ultimate truth (God) that could remain constant, and that it portrayed itself in mathematics.

That all changed in the mid/late 19th century with the advent of the aetheist philosopher Friedrich Nietzsche, who sided with the pre-Socratic philosophers and dramatists that passion, fire and emotion were valuable Dionysian traits and should not be discarded for the Apollonian traits or cool, calm and reason. Regard the following quote:

"In his first notable work, The Birth and Tragedy and the Spirit of Music (1872), Nietzsche contrasted the Apollonian and the Dionysian, these two faces of the Greek world... the Dionysian element means to give the fullest expression of pent-up emotions, passions, dread and madness... the Apollonian framework is of story, plot and coherence. Nietzsche said it was the fault of Socrates and Greek academic philosophers to give too much to the Apollonian at the expense of the Dionysian."

-Paraphrased quote of Daniel N. Robinson, Oxford University

Nietzsche was not only an atheist, but a philosophical rock star of the late 19th Century. France was known as "a country of 50 million atheists." Nietzsche had proclaimed "God is Dead". There are stories of what a huge deal it would be if he showed up to a cocktail party. He was the ultimate dinner guest, and his work was well-read around the world.

Since that was the fashionable thinking of the time, imagine just how far out of lock-step someone like Deacon White was, who still believed the world was flat. That's why he was so subject to ridicule. But it also supports the theory of "Dear Son of God/Fallen from Grace" as taking a jab at Deacon for his religiosity. It is as if to say, "Deacon, you think you are above us like Apollo, but really you are just another Dionysian creature of sin like the everyone else".

No one knows for certain whether the producers of the card read Nietzsche, but considering his fame, it would not be far-fetched to think they had, especially since they possessed the intellectual sophistication to create a riddle of this magnitude. Nevertheless, it shows just how far out of step the ideas of Deacon White were with the prevailing attitudes and ideas of his era.

[Matthew H]

Wow, its like the last two posts aren't even on he same planet. This is a cool thread

[cyseymour]

Originally Posted by Matthew H

Wow, its like the last two posts aren't even on he same planet. This is a cool thread

Matthew, I am just trying to create a coherent backdrop to show how the double-entendre fits in with the typical sense of humor of the OJ producers, as well as the prevailing attitudes of society at the time.

I liked your post, though

[Matthew H]

Cy, it's certainly very educational.

Troy, it's interesting that you think it's a G and not a C. I've thought that too, but I've never seen a hi-res scan so I've assumed it was a C. Looking at the McGeachy card with a loupe... The G looks very similar.

[RCMcKenzie]

Cy/Jaime

forgot to also recommend "Easy Money"

In one scene, a girl is playing piano. Joe Pesci walks into the room and says..
"What are you Playing?"

And the girl says, "Scales"

Pesci says, "Never heard of 'im"

[cyseymour]

It was a C because that the name "McCrea" is a real Irish name, while the name "McGrea" is not. "McCrea" is a common part of the Irish lexicon, while "McGrea" is just gibberish, nonsensical.

That is why the Old Judge book authors inferred to be a C and not a G, because intuitively they know that McGrea is not a part of our lexicon, while McCrea is.

Other examples exist of cards with the letter C that appear to be G. Take Owen Clark on p. 176, card 75-3. Same effect as the C that Troy refers to, looks blotched at the bottom, it reads like "Glark".

Also, you can see from the printing of McCreachery that the third C, contained in "Chery" is also a bit heavier at the bottom. These reasons show that it had to do with a fuzzy printing process, not that it was intended to be a G.

[cyseymour]

If you're not sold yet, you won't believe what I have just uncovered (I'm stuck at home today waiting for a delivery guy). It is a joke card regarding Pretzles Getzien's name.

Getzien is not a real German name. It derives from the word "gesehen" which means "to have been seen."

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/gesehen

Yet on some of his cards in the OJ book, it reads "Cetzein", and in fact, it caused a confusion in a few newspaper articles succeeding the publishing of the card, where he is called Cetzein.

But it turns out that the name "Cetzein" was also a joke. You can see from this passage, "Cet zein":

"The word he translated ‘investigate’ is cet zein, which can carry the semi-technical sense ‘subject to a Socratic examination.’"

http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...&ct=clnk&gl=us

The joke is that, as a German foreigner, Charlie Getzien was an oddball subject to examination. Get it? These guys are using the roots of words of the player names to make jokes!!!



--------------------------------------




"Detroit has a pitcher in Cetzein who is second to. I none ia the League, and he ... The record of the pitchers shows that Cetzein has done work that entitles him to ..."

http://fultonhistory.com/Newspapers%...20-%200018.pdf

"Cetzein pitched for us that day. He vowedi eome time previously that if we ever did win again he would drop dead. And ihe almost kept his word. As the last man ..."

http://fultonhistory.com/Newspapers%...20-%200018.pdf

Batteries Cetzein and Bennett; Hutchinson and KittredKC. I. At Philadelphia—. R- H. E.. Philadelphia...0 2 0 1 2 5 0 0 0-1013 0. Cleveland. .0 0 1 1 0 0 0 0 0— ...

http://fultonhistory.com/Newspaper%2...20-%200039.pdf

[cyseymour]

Another note that the "Cetzein" cards in the OJ book all date to the same year 1888 as the McCreachery card! The OJ producers were making jokes of the names!

[kkkkandp]

My 1887 Pud Galvin card looks like it says "Calvin."

Do you think that was a subtle reference by the creators of Old Judge cards to theologian John Calvin, upon whose theories Presbyterianism was based? Furthermore, through that could it be a veiled reference to the Presbyterian cocktail as a subtle dig against the teams in the American Association - the upstart "Beer and Whiskey League" - that was challenging the teams from the more established National League? Galvin came from the American Association to the National League in 1887.

Just a thought.

[z28jd]

Kevin speaks the truth. It is well-known that the Goodwin family was an uppity bunch, always willing to take potshots at those they deemed less fortunate. They were also huge supporters of the French.

An example of their family's affinity for the French can be found subtly on the card of Frenchy Genins. The Goodwin's were still much maligned earlier in the 19th century for their ardent support of the French during the US-French battles at sea from 1798-1800(known as the Quasi-War). While the Old Judge cards didn't come out until generations later, their support was undying and unwavering. Being a company located near a huge US harbor, they were always welcoming towards their French allies during the 1887 time period. The Goodwins themselves were seafaring people and they owned a small island in the NY harbor, not far from their company. The spelling of "Genius" on the Frenchy Genins card was not an error nor a jab at the player. Rather it was a beckoning call towards the French to resume their attacks, intelligence at the time indicated that the defensive mentality of the U.S. towards the French was down due to the recent goodwill shown by gift of the Statue of Liberty in 1886.

Thus my friends, Frenchy Genius was a subtle nod to the French that times were right for war.

[novakjr]

Guys, don't poke the bear... He's likely to expand those statements into the extremest of levels, and then turn all of that into fact. Next thing you know he'll be referencing the OJ Checklist here http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=85245
and he'll notice that the first letter in the last names of each player listed for each team are A, G, M, S. Obviously, that's a jumble that spell out "mags". Clearly in reference to gun "magazines". Also noting that the first 4 players listed for Chicago are Anson, Hoover, Clark and Sprague, resulting in A, H, C, S. Clearly, in this code, the second letter is thrown out and the remaining letters are jumbled once again to spell out CSA or Confederate States of America. And that the first player listed for New York is Slattery, sounds pretty close to Slavery. Duh! It's so obvious now.. "CSA" combined with "MAGS" and the choice of using Slattery first, conclusively shows that they were supporters of the south, who trying to re-start the Civil War..

[cyseymour]

You know, it's great that we have a bunch of comedians on the board. You would have done well as Old Judge card producers.

I noticed the bit about Calvin and Galvin on my own as well as I was going through the C's and G's. It's clearly a double-entendre about galvanizing Calvinists.

It is all good and well to poke fun at me, I am not as serious as you think. I still think that the McCreachery riddle is very feasible. It would be wickedly clever if it were so.

As far as Cetzein, it sure would be cool if it were so. As I've calmed down from the excitement of the initial association, yeah... maybe as not likely.. but anything is possible!

For your viewing pleasure:

Yiddish: vet zein translates to "will be", likely that a corruption of cet zein. So using cet zein as a form of Socratic questioning is to learn what will be. Which is reasonable.

It's impossible to know the intentions of the OJ producers, but clearly cet zein is an expression, and it has been used as Getzien's name. So whether it was intentional or not will remain a mystery, but still very interesting!

[Joe_G.]

No such thing as "Cetzein" N172. Not worth posting twice, just check out cyseymours other thread: http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=160145

CySeymour, if you read my posts, my main objective was to correct your errors. I didn't attack your riddle. I think it is a bit silly, but I find it very interesting. I'd rate this as one of my favorite threads of 2012 despite the low blows. I like your enthusiasm for OJs, but you will find far more support if you simmer down a bit and avoid stating wild speculation as fact well before you've confirmed any of the facts. Hope to meet you in person some day, perhaps at a National.

To answer previous inquiries, some do believe the McCreachery card is really McGreachery. It is tough to tell. Lew Lipset catalogued the card as McGreachery. So what riddle is buried in McGreachery???

[cyseymour]

Joe,

With a "G", there would be no riddle in "McGreachery". If you go to post #87 you can see the reasons why I believe it to be McCreachery. But another reason is that I believe, among etymologists, the general rule of thumb is that if one is unsure between two different letters, and one of those letters creates a name or the root words of a name, while the other one is gibberish, then you go with the one that creates the root words of the name, as it is the most likely answer, seeing that it's a part of human language.

I'm still fairly confident that McCreachery was meant as a riddle. While, per the other thread, I realize that you are correct that "cetzein" was not, the McCreachery name does happen to be on a joke card and is derived from a fake, invented name, making a riddle much more likely.

As far as stating opinion as fact, I think it's just my writing style. I hadn't even considered it to be an issue, but I will try to be mindful of it in the future. I didn't mean to send you a lot of low blows, in fact, I hadn't realize I was. Sorry if you felt that way. Honestly, I felt that throughout the thread, you were consistently writing derogatory things.

But I have no reason to drum up the past and bring up old posts. Those are already done and finished. For the McCreachery card, still very possible it was a riddle, especially considering the context of the names and that the card possesses an invented name. As for Pretzel Getzien, it was interesting to learn a little German and the likely whereabouts of the Getzien family today.

I do plan to go to the National as well, and definitely hope to meet you. There is no doubt that you and your book co-authors have contributed a tremendous amount to the hobby. I also thank you for chiming in on this thread. As for me, I am someone who likes to challenge preconceived notions, even if I can't be right all the time. That's a standard which probably no one can live up to.

Cheers

[Exhibitman]

The first law firm I worked for had a heavily Irish partnership including the managing partner. There was one German-Jewish partner and as a joke they wrote a "Mc" on his door namplate prefacing his last name. Perhaps part of the name used on the card was a similar nod to the Irish composition of the sport in the era.

[cyseymour]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

The first law firm I worked for had a heavily Irish partnership including the managing partner. There was one German-Jewish partner and as a joke they wrote a "Mc" on his door namplate prefacing his last name. Perhaps part of the name used on the card was a similar nod to the Irish composition of the sport in the era.

Adam, great observation. This is what I believe as well, that they were poking fun at him by calling him Irish. If that's true, and seeing the name "McCreachery" is does not exist in real life, then it's also possible that the name McCreachery was invented as an elaborate pun containing the word "Creach" and the names "McCrea" and "Chery".

We'll never know for sure, but the pun and the joke of him being Irish fit very well within the context of the life and times of Deacon White.

[cyseymour]

Since the conversation on the Pretzels thread creeped back around to the McCreachery card, I thought I ought to reintroduce the topic on this thread. Per Joe saying that he saw the card in 2008 and deemed it McCreachery, I think we ought to assume it's that for the sake of conversation until more conclusive evidence can be produced.

[RCMcKenzie]

I'm gonna defer to Adam W. on this one. He can be the final arbiter. Unless he disagrees with what I think.

[jcmtiger]

I was wondering when this thread would turn.

Joe