Mastro pleads guilty

teetwoohsix · #1 11-30-2012, 11:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by g_vezina_c55

any possibility of a AUTH re-slab for the wagner By psa ?

Well, I don't think there's any other way to go, if he testifies to altering it. Not that many didn't already believe this anyways; but by him not disclosing this earlier, he left a bit of doubt.

I'd love to hear the details, like who else was on the sheet, how many were on the sheet, was it a strip or a sheet, etc.

And, I know that has nothing to do with the fraud. Hopefully whoever was a victim of his fraud gets compensated somehow; restitution.

Sincerely, Clayton

jcmtiger · #2 12-01-2012, 12:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by teetwoohsix

Well, I don't think there's any other way to go, if he testifies to altering it. Not that many didn't already believe this anyways; but by him not disclosing this earlier, he left a bit of doubt.

I'd love to hear the details, like who else was on the sheet, how many were on the sheet, was it a strip or a sheet, etc.

And, I know that has nothing to do with the fraud. Hopefully whoever was a victim of his fraud gets compensated somehow; restitution.

Sincerely, Clayton

I doubt there was a sheet of cards. I don't want to start a bashing thread either way. But I knew Bill and Frank Nagy in the 1970's, 1980s. They set up at the Michigan Plymouth shows together for years. They really were a team. I bought many of my Cobb and Old judge cards from their table. I had some cards that I bought thru some antique dealers and Bill pointed out that they were not real. Bill was/is an expert on vintage cards. There are lot of new collectors piling on that know much less about cards and nothing about Bill. It's unfortunate that he trimmed this card, because it would have been worth a lot of money anyway. Bill brought a lot to the hobby, sorry that he did this to the Wagner. Not sure if ther are any "Oldtimers" on the board that remember Bill as I do. I do expect a lot negative feedback from this post.

Joe

drc · #3 12-01-2012, 01:46 AM

I don't doubt that he's very knowledgeable about cards. I always assumed that.

williamcohon · #4 12-01-2012, 03:24 AM

Interesting dilemma, isn't it, to find out that someone who made a positive contribution followed it up with something morally reprehensible? I guess there are people who credit Mastro with guidance and even inspiration. And plenty of others respected him as one of the central figures in card collecting.

Well, all right, no need to reinterpret good deeds.

And yet, the damage he inflicted on the hobby is huge. Desecrating the t206 Wagner is inexcusable. And on top of that, PSA takes serious hit. The only question is whether it is their integrity or competence which is lacking.

WhenItWasAHobby · #5 12-01-2012, 06:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by williamcohon

Interesting dilemma, isn't it, to find out that someone who made a positive contribution followed it up with something morally reprehensible? I guess there are people who credit Mastro with guidance and even inspiration. And plenty of others respected him as one of the central figures in card collecting.

Well, all right, no need to reinterpret good deeds.

And yet, the damage he inflicted on the hobby is huge. Desecrating the t206 Wagner is inexcusable. And on top of that, PSA takes serious hit. The only question is whether it is their integrity or competence which is lacking.

In my opinion it's both. There was a thread started on the Collectors Universe Message Board in April 2005 where someone openly admitted that Mastro would take cards on consignment and doctor them and then have them graded. The thread was immediately deleted by CU. I saved the thread as an HTM file before it was deleted and attempted to attach it as a winzip file to this post but for some reason the winzip attachment is not working. I can forward the thread to someone who is more tech savvy about that stuff if there is any interest.

hammer · #6 12-01-2012, 06:32 AM

My father used to tell me where their is money to be made watch out.

calvindog · #7 12-01-2012, 06:57 AM

Guys, Bill Mastro's crimes in this hobby did not start and end with the trimming of the Wagner card. His fraud was ongoing, systematic and all-encompassing. The great majority of people who bid in a Mastro auction were victims of his fraud.

Runscott · #8 12-01-2012, 09:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by teetwoohsix

but by him not disclosing this earlier, he left a bit of doubt.

Seriously? "Who", after all the discussions we've had, after the book that was written, etc, etc, could possibly have had a bit of doubt? Name this person, and then tell me how this doubt was possible.

Peter_Spaeth · #9 12-01-2012, 09:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Runscott

Seriously? "Who", after all the discussions we've had, after the book that was written, etc, etc, could possibly have had a bit of doubt? Name this person, and then tell me how this doubt was possible.

David Hall?

WhenItWasAHobby · #10 12-01-2012, 10:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

David Hall?

LOL! Yes indeed; the last remaining holdout in the hobby.

Re-reading the O'Keeffe article about Hall below, at one point Hall allegedly said,

"We never considered that it had been altered".

There are several ways one can interpret that comment.

http://www.nydailynews.com/blogs/ite...not-in-private

barrysloate · #11 12-01-2012, 09:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Runscott

Seriously? "Who", after all the discussions we've had, after the book that was written, etc, etc, could possibly have had a bit of doubt? Name this person, and then tell me how this doubt was possible.

While I agree with you Scott, there were more than a few people who believed this was nothing more than an unsubstantiated rumor. How many people on this board, when the subject came up, said there was no way you could prove it was trimmed? Now it can be confirmed.

Runscott · #12 12-01-2012, 02:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by barrysloate

While I agree with you Scott, there were more than a few people who believed this was nothing more than an unsubstantiated rumor. How many people on this board, when the subject came up, said there was no way you could prove it was trimmed? Now it can be confirmed.

I now, a lot of people said that, but even before the book (and the recent confessions) came out, there was a large group of us who were 100% sure that it WAS trimmed. I was digging around in the archives six months or so ago, and found some of the old discussions - so I'm not being a hypocrite here, or revising history. It looks like there is no amount of evidence, short of an actual film showing the trimming, that will convince some people.

ls7plus · #13 12-01-2012, 05:28 PM

You know what's going to happen as long as there's big money at stake--someone's going to do whatever it takes to get at it!!!

Best, guys,

Larry

teetwoohsix · #14 12-01-2012, 11:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Runscott

Seriously? "Who", after all the discussions we've had, after the book that was written, etc, etc, could possibly have had a bit of doubt? Name this person, and then tell me how this doubt was possible.

Seriously. Me.

After reading the book "The Card" a couple of times, I still had reservations.

The grainy black and white photo of the card in it's "un-trimmed" state was convincing, but I couldn't wrap my brain around the logic of cutting up the only known sheet (with a Wagner and a Plank!!)of T206's into singular cards, thinking it would make him more money. And, that was the given scenario in the book, that it was cut from a sheet. I felt someone with as much knowledge about cards would've instantly known the signifigance of this "sheet", and how valuable it would've been in it's entirety. I would think far more valueable than broken down into single cards.

Now, if it wasn't cut from a sheet, or strip, I could see why he trimmed it;for financial gain. But, to cut up a sheet? Don't get that. *Not saying trimming it is right, I would've left it alone*

So, I had doubts. And, I have no problem admiting it. Based on it being cut from a sheet.

Sincerely, Clayton

Peter_Spaeth · #15 12-01-2012, 11:27 AM

Mastro purchased it already cut from the sheet and trimmed it further, as i understand it.

Runscott · #16 12-01-2012, 02:21 PM

edited - pointless post.

sylbry · #17 12-01-2012, 07:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by teetwoohsix

The grainy black and white photo of the card in it's "un-trimmed" state was convincing, but I couldn't wrap my brain around the logic of cutting up the only known sheet (with a Wagner and a Plank!!)of T206's into singular cards, thinking it would make him more money. And, that was the given scenario in the book, that it was cut from a sheet. I felt someone with as much knowledge about cards would've instantly known the signifigance of this "sheet", and how valuable it would've been in it's entirety. I would think far more valueable than broken down into single cards.

Wonder what holder the Plank currently resides in?

Jlighter · #18 12-01-2012, 08:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sylbry

Wonder what holder the Plank currently resides in?

It's hard to detect sarcasm on the Internet, but its in an A holder

http://www.robertedwardauctions.com/.../2009/890.html

hammer · #19 12-01-2012, 08:43 PM

Great read on the Plank, Thanks for the article.

teetwoohsix · #20 12-01-2012, 11:29 PM

So, you have the person(s) who trimmed the card,,,whether from a strip, sheet, or just from a card with large enough borders- and you have a TPG who gave it the high grade that it had. Who is more at fault here for deception & fraud? The trimmer, the grader, or both?

Yes, the Plank was given a big "A".

Sincerely, Clayton

sylbry · #21 12-02-2012, 12:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jlighter

It's hard to detect sarcasm on the Internet, but its in an A holder

http://www.robertedwardauctions.com/.../2009/890.html

Honest question. So one card from the strip is graded an 8 while the other is an A. The only difference being one was cut from the strip with more care?

And how can PSA continue to deny the Wagner's history when they have also graded the other significant card on the strip?

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