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#1
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1910 COUPON (T213-1)
Most of you guys know my opinion regarding the 1910 COUPON cards. In the past 6 years, I have posted several threads on this subject. Check out these threads........ http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...ht=1910+coupon http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...=Quintuplicate http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...ht=1910+coupon It is a NO-BRAINER, these cards are indeed the 16th T-brand of the T206 set; as, they were issued in the Spring/Summer of 1910 (concurrently with the AMERICAN BEAUTY, BROAD LEAF, CYCLE, and DRUM cards). With all due respect to Burdick....he mis-classified this sub-set of 68 cards. Burdick's records indicate that they were issued "circa 1913-15"......this timeline is absolutely incorrect ! So, we'll give Burdick a "mulligan" on this one ![]() This group of five T-brands were printed & issued circa Spring/Summer of 1910 ![]() ![]() RED CROSS (T215-1) ![]() ![]() This issue is somewhat more complicated, as it derives subjects from the 150 series, 350 series, and the 460 series. Although, some of the RED CROSS cards were issued in 1910, others were issued in early 1912 (evident by team trades reflected in their captions). So, I'm not ready to venture out on a limb and say the T215-1 should be classified as part of the T206 set. Check out this thread........ http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...ight=red+cross The 1910 COUPON....absolutely YES TED Z Last edited by tedzan; 11-13-2018 at 08:40 PM. Reason: Correct typo. |
#2
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Why are T215 Red Cross not considered part of the T206 set, but brown background Red Cross are considered part of the T207 set? Is there a difference?
Quick side bar: as I'm typing in the words "Red Cross" I'm listening to an ad on the radio asking for donations to the Red Cross for Hurricane Sandy. Isn't that a coincidence? |
#3
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the BROWN captioned aspects of these cards are consistent with the T206 format. Consider this, if this issue is indeed part of the "T206 family"....we can extend the T206 timeline to "1909 - 1912". TED Z This includes approx. 35 cards that were derived from the 350-Only series and the Matty (white cap) from the 150/350 series. |
#4
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I'm not certain Red Cross should be included in T206 either, but I would like someone to explain why we include it in the T207 set without even questioning it.
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#5
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My guess is simply because there is no other set that has the T207 fronts. Because the T213-1 and the T215-1 use the same fronts as T206, it's easier for people to try to build a case that these should have been included in the T206 set. I don't think they are T206's, but you won't convince the people who do. TedZ.- I know your position on T213-1's, and I know you've studied these sets way longer than I have, but what about the paper stock on T213-1's. Why is it different? Thanks- Sincerely, Clayton |
#6
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The 1910 COUPON cards were not meant to be inserted as cardboard stiffiners in ATC's standard 10-cigarettes packs. Therefore, the thin cardboard stock. None such cigarettes pack has ever been found. And, I don't think any will be. Regarding the first distribution of the "COUPON" cigarettes that have been found are boxes labelled "COUPON" brand (circa 1908-1910) containing 100's of cigarettes. TED Z |
#7
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It's difficult to sway anyone's opinion on the subject as there are enough key points to craft an argument for or against. Last edited by Abravefan11; 11-25-2012 at 01:18 PM. |
#8
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But, according to his records, his timeline regarding the 1910 COUPON issue is faulty...."circa 1913-19". This timeline applies only to the T213-2 and T213-3 issues. With all due respect to Jeff Burdick, this is where he got it wrong on the 1910 COUPON cards. And, I don't think you are questioning their 1910 date ? Quote:
Regarding the thinner stock that the 1910 COUPON cards were printed on.....I will reprise what I have already posted...... The 1910 COUPON cards were not meant to be inserted as cardboard stiffiners in ATC's standard 10-cigarettes packs. Therefore, American Litho. printed these cards on thin cardboard stock. It's as basic as that. This factor is not a big deal, as some on this forum try to make it out to be. The "COUPON" cigarettes were packaged in boxes labelled "COUPON" (circa 1908-1910) containing 100's of cigarettes of this new ATC brand. Furthermore, no 1910 "COUPON" (10-cigarette) packs have ever been found. And, I don't think any will be. Best regards, TED Z |
#9
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![]() Barry, you're welcome, but I'm sure you thought the same thing ![]() TedZ.- I'm probably wrong, but I've always been on the fence about these cards being "pack stiffeners".....I'm probably alone on this, but sometimes it doesn't make sense to me. First, the cards aren't that "thick" (in my opinion);I don't know how effective they would be as "stiffeners". Second, if they were stiffeners, why wouldn't Polar Bear cards be "thicker" than say, Piedmont or Sweet Caporal (or, any other T206 brand cards)? I would think that since they were packaged in pouches, they would make PB's thicker? And finally, what did Piemont (or any of the other T206 brands) use as a pack stiffener before T206 cards? It surely wasn't these coupons, they are paper thin. These are some of the things that make it hard for me to believe that they would go out of there way to use a whole different paper stock, on this 1st series T-213, but still intend it to be a T206. It's just one of the things that don't make sense to me. Add on the fact that you have the other two series of Coupon, which seem to be a direct result of differentiating (intentionally) this series APART from T206,,,and this isn't even getting into T206 350 subject series..... Just my thoughts, I just don't think these cards were meant to be T206's. Thanks for the replies, I love this topic ![]() Sincerely, Clayton |
#10
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The RED CROSS (T215-1) set consists of 96 cards. It is comprised of T206 subjects from the 150/350 series, 350-only series, 350/460 series,
and 460-only series. These cards were most likely issued in 2 series....1st series of 48 (or 36) subjects in 1910....the 2nd series of 48 (or 60) subjects in early 1912. The T215 cards were printed in New York City (as most of that era's T-cards), shipped to the Lorillard plant (Factory #10) in Jersey City (NJ), and inserted in the Red Cross tobacco products. A large find of Red Cross cards occurred some years back in the Louisiana area. ![]() ![]() This list of 96 cards is still a work in progress. The Standard Catalog is uncertain with respect to the T215-1 cards. However, a 96-card "complete" set of the T215-1's "cousins", the "PIRATE" Tobacco set, has been confirmed. These T215 cards closely match that of the cards found in the "Pirate" Tobacco set. I think it is fair to conclude that American Litho. printed both of these White-Bordered, Brown-Captioned cards in the same time-frame. Ames (hands above head) Baker Ball Bender (trees) Bridwell (portrait-cap) M. Brown (Chicago) Byrne (Pittsburg)........................traded August 19, 1909 Camnitz (arm at side) Chance (yellow portrait) Chase (trophy) Cobb (bat off shoulder) Collins (A's) Conroy (bat) Crandall (portrait-cap) Crawford (bat) Cree Davis (A's) Devore Donlin (bat)....(Pittsburg)..............traded Feb 17, 1912 Doolan (bat) Doolan (fielding) Dougherty (arm in air) Doyle (portrait) Doyle (bat) Dubuc Elberfeld (Wash.-fielding) Evers (bat-yellow sky) Ford Fromme Griffith (bat)....(Washington)..........traded in Feb 1912 Groom Hartsel (Toledo)...........................acquired by Toledo in Dec 1911 Herzog (New York, NL)..................traded July 22, 1911 Hoblitzell Hofman Howard Huggins (portrait)..(St Louis NL)......traded Feb 1910 Huggins (hands/mouth) Hummell Jennings (one hand) Jennings (two hands) Johnson (pitching) Kelley Konetchy (glove low) Krause Lajoie (bat) Lake (St Louis-no ball) Latham Leifield (bat) Lord Magee (bat) Marquard (portrait) Marquard (pitching) Mathewson (white cap) Mathewson (dark cap) McGinnity McGraw (portrait-cap) McGraw (glove) Harry McIntyre (Chicago NL) Matty McIntyre (Detroit) McLean Merkle (throwing) Meyers Miller Mowrey (St Louis, NL)...................traded Aug 22, 1909 Mullin (bat) Murray Oakes O'Leary (hands on knees) Paskert Pelty (vertical) Purtell Quinn Reulbach (no glove) Rucker (throwing) Schaefer (Washington) Schulte (back view) Sheckard (glove) Frank Smith (Cincinnati).................traded May 11, 1911 Speaker Stahl (glove) Steinfeldt (bat)....(St. Louis, NL).....tryout, circa Feb 1912 Street Sweeney (New York AL) Tannehill (Chicago AL) Tinker (bat on shoulder) Tinker (bat off shoulder) Wagner (bat on right) Warhop Wheat Doc White (pitching) Willetts Wilson Wiltse (portrait) Wiltse (pitching) Cy Young (glove) I reiterate, this checklist is a work in progress; therefore, I would appreciate any updates to it. Especially, I'm looking for more team changes..... that are different from the original T206 captions. Also, showing or telling of your T215-1 cards here are surely appreciated. TED Z Last edited by tedzan; 11-13-2018 at 08:44 PM. |
#11
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Thanks Clayton.
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#12
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No matter how much anyone in our hobby debates the issue it is abundantly clear what Burdick wanted. He knew the sets were similar and he still accounted for them the way he did. Maybe a few series should have been cataloged differently but they aren't. Just as T206 Old Mills are T206 and the Red Border Old Mills are T210, so are T213 and T215 each in their own group. Each of the latter 2 series have differences that would not fit into T206 (such as thinner stock or blue captions). I don't own the Griffin anymore..
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__________________
Leon Luckey www.luckeycards.com |
#13
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With all due respect, don't you mean the 17th T206 brand. Aren't you forgetting the Ty Cobb brand, also produced in the Spring of 1910 concurrent with the brands you mentioned and also produced by the ATC. I don't want to open another can of worms here and we have hashed this out many times before on this forum. Just wanted to catch the oversight. ![]() If anyone is interested in more details on the issues concerning the Cobb back, see my article on T206Resource.com http://www.t206resource.com/Article-...ing-World.html JimB |
#14
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![]() No "oversight".....I seriously considered mentioning the red Cobb/Ty Cobb card; but, as is evident here....it's a tough game just trying to get some guys on this forum to have an open mind regarding the 1910 COUPON issue. Typically, these skeptics allude to...."don't confuse me with the facts". You and I are on the same track regarding the red Cobb/Ty Cobb card as an integral component of the T206 set. I was convinced of this when I researched Sen. Russell's collection in 1907. For anyone interested, see this thread on Senator Russell's card collection...... http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...ell+collection The speculation in the hobby for many years about the Ty Cobb card was....that it was issued in the post T206 era. After reading Sen. Russell's biography, it was obvious to me that he essentially collected his 497-card T206 set during 1910 as a teenager living near Atlanta (GA). Indeed this convinced me that the red Cobb with the Ty Cobb back card was issued in 1910. Russell's T206 set includes the red Cobb/Ty Cobb card and the rare Joe Doyle N.Y. Nat'l card. Incidently, Jim..I do not agree with your premise that the red Cobb image first appeared on the Ty Cobb back card. The the 6 super prints (which include the T206 red Cobb) were printed on a sheet of certain 350-only series cards that can be dated to very early in 1910 (if not as early as late 1909). TED Z |
#15
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Thanks Tim. I agree some of the confusion occurs because there were multiple designs for both T213 and T215, and that's why they were not included with T206. With the T207 Red Cross, there is no confusion. But I was curious if other experts had any other thoughts or insights.
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#16
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__________________
$co++ Forre$+ |
#17
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![]() ![]() Sorry guy, but I don't agree. I usually, if not 99% of the time, agree with everything you say. However, my 30+ years of E-Engineering mentality cannot accept that. My brain desires to have ryhme and reason behind these events. And, thanks to our empirical experience, the Internet, and brain-storming between veteran hobbyist that are willing to share info, we have a fair amount of circumstantial evidence which we can form intelligent theory's of what transpired 100 years ago. And for that matter, 125 years ago when Sportscard premiums were first introduced into Tobacco packs. Take care ole buddy, TED Z |
#18
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__________________
$co++ Forre$+ |
#19
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How many roads must a man walk down Before you call him a man? How many seas must a white dove sail Before she sleeps in the sand? Yes, how many times must the cannon balls fly Before they're forever banned? The answer my friend is blowin' in the wind The answer is blowin' in the wind. .
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Leon Luckey www.luckeycards.com |
#20
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Nice poem Leon...did you write that?
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#21
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Good question Leon.
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#22
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#23
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http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=146010 .
__________________
Leon Luckey www.luckeycards.com |
#24
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Ed You and I (and, if I recall correctly, Scott Brockelman) appear to be the only guys on this forum that think the 1910 COUPON cards are really T206's. Perhaps, there are others, but they choose not to get into this fray ? P.S.....Look guys, I view this simply as an academic exercise....as, nothing will ever come of it. I have no axe to grind. Currently, I have 12 cards from this 1910 Coupon issue. Furthermore, I certainly don't ever expect to complete this set of 68 cards TED Z Last edited by tedzan; 11-13-2018 at 08:53 PM. |
#25
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Quitter
__________________
$co++ Forre$+ |
#26
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There's "bigger fish to fry" than these "COUPON" cards. Besides, it would probably take 20 years for me to acquire the remaining 56 cards.
At my age, I don't think it's do-able ![]() Received your email....and, those are weird looking CJ's. I'll send you my weird looking T206.....it will give you a chuckle ![]() ![]() Take care ole buddy, T-Rex TED |
#27
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Ted, I want to see the bigger fish you plan on frying.
Also, Tim's comment above reminded me of a question that still remains unanswered. If anyone other than Ted considers me worthy of discussing such nuances, please chime in: How did the printing plates survive the end of the T206 printing in 1911, the break-up of the ATC, and the lapses between Coupon card printing, all the way through 1916? (then they disappeared, presumably destroyed) Theories? edited to add: this might seem too tangential, but I think it's relevant to the T206 vs T213 vs T215 discussion.
__________________
$co++ Forre$+ Last edited by Runscott; 11-27-2012 at 12:25 PM. |
#28
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The American Tobacco Co. did not have the printing plates, the printing plates were the property of the American Lithographic Company. American Lithographic (like most major printing firms) produced multiple printing plates. I realized this was standard printer's practice in 1983. When a former Bowman Gum employee walked into a BB card shop in Cherry Hill, NJ with the 7 original printing (32-image) plates which were used to print the 224 cards of the 1954 Bowman BB set. He also had duplicate plates of these 7 plates. TED Z Last edited by tedzan; 11-27-2012 at 01:45 PM. |
#29
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The t206resource site has t215-1 listed in their scarcity rankings list, un-numbered, between 8 lenox-black and 9 bl 350. They list t213-1 between 10 blank-back and 11 Carolina Brights. I sort of like this idea of including them with t206 cards without changing the terminology. I know my collection of T213-1 would be worth alot more money if everyone just considered them a difficult t206 back.
Lipset has some interesting points on the T213-1 in his encyclopedia. The most interesting to me is where he states that it is doubtful that the set is complete at 68. Last edited by RCMcKenzie; 11-27-2012 at 01:46 PM. Reason: spelling |
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It's my opinion that all of the T215-1's were issued in 1912. A year after the conclusion of the T206 set and after the breakup of the ATC trust.
Last edited by Abravefan11; 11-27-2012 at 11:56 AM. |
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