Lot #4 in Goldin Auctions Rocky Marciano gloves have been PULLED. READ

[toybulldog]

BTW, it does not surprise me at all that some of the "experts" were MIA when it came time to help in a constructive way. As I have noted elsewhere previously, that is the M.O. and you only contributions you'll ever see is bashing TPAs.

If you are one that supports TPA's I would have to say that is the biggest projection I've ever heard. PSA/DNA was invited to come on here to discuss a bogus authentication with an estimated value of $25,000 and they chose not to participate. When it comes to posting evidence or giving an evidence based explanation they are always MIA. Doesn't anyone here want to see the entire "world's leading autograph experts" debate the lone "independant operator bread route salesman" over these Rocky Marciano signatures? Sounds like a damned monster movie?

[whitehse]

I didnt get involved in the original Marciano thread because, well, I dont know enough about the subject to even comment on it. I do applaud Ken for doing the right thing and pulling the plug on the auction. I do find it beyond crazy that PSA/DNA would not even dignify their work with a response. I wouldnt think they would come here to respond but at least an email to Ken would have been appropriate!

I have one question for Ken. Any chance you could pay my way to your offices so I could render my opinion on all the great stuff you have there? I have very little experience authenticating anything but I would love the opportunity to hang out and see what you have!! I could even report back to the members of the board.....kinda like a working vacation!!

Of course I kid but what a great trip that would be!!

[JimStinson]

I have a restaurant near my house who's sign reads "Worlds Greatest Hamburgers" ........Its a big world and I think their claim is probably false. BUT its a decent burger.
PSA says they are the worlds leading authenticator or whatever it is they say. Or the Best authentication service in the world or whatever.....Its called "marketing" and its up to the consumer of that product to determine if its not true or is true. If the business survives maybe that represents VALIDATION.
But there is a theory created by Darwin that says that in nature and origin of species, ESPECIALLY with regards to free enterprize that those that are not suited to their environment will not survive. TIME seperates fact from fiction. Naturally,
Despite anything we say or do. PSA has been in business for a good long while , ( I was there and I think its been about 12 years) If people want to spend their money there it is their CHOICE , Good or bad. They have every right to do it. My personal opinions OR ANYONE ELSES are invalid. The stronge survive , good eventually triumphs over evil.
So if collector "A" believes in that service and wants to spend his Bucks on it , I support him. And I support PSA , just as I support AAA, and AA and AARP and the NAACP or anything else you can place the letter "A" in ...because eventually ................TIME , not these posts will determine...fact from illusion. What a country !!!!
_________________________
Buying and selling Vintage autographs for over three decades
jim@stinsonsports.com

[kengoldin]

just as an FYI
I did speak to PSA and I have no issues with PSA/DNA They were very professional in the entire business and i appreciate them reaching out to me.
Please do not characterize them as not contacting me as that is not the case. You can all speak from your own experiences, but not mine

[travrosty]

they were so professional they showed you exemplars that they used when you asked for them?

when you get an oil change and change the oil filter, and ask to see the old filter to make sure they actually changed it and did the job they were paid to do and they wont show it to you, do you come back for more in the future?

you pay their salary, and they answer to you, not the other way around. are they going to get future work in your auction?

where are their exemplars used for these gloves. aren't you mad they won't show you any?

I would show any customer any exemplars they wanted to see and make them a hard copy on a flash drive fedexed to their house if they wanted it.

show just one exemplar you used, professional sports authenticators/DNA/BFF

[keithsky]

Auction companies won"t blast any authentication service like PSA or JSA because it would hurt there business. If you figure them running an auction with no item authenticated by PSA or JSA there bidders will not be there and they'll lose money. Just look at the crap on Coach's Corner and there price for the guys that authenticte there verses an auction house that has PSA or JSA autheticate items. 10 time less money there. So auction companies aren't going to say anything negative about them even if something is wrong. And to think that PSA or JSA would come on here if they authenticated something that was found not real will never happen. There not going to admit mistakes. Bad for business. They think they know more than anybody outside there company. There is some very smart experts outside of there companys and you would think maybe they would listen to some of there reasons. Like the old saying " You learn something new everyday" These comments are just my opinions and I'm sure not everyone agree.

[sayhey24]

That's terrific that the gloves were pulled.

GREAT job by Mark for bringing this to light, and by Jim for lending his expertise.

Greg

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by keithsky

Auction companies won"t blast any authentication service like PSA or JSA because it would hurt there business. If you figure them running an auction with no item authenticated by PSA or JSA there bidders will not be there and they'll lose money. Just look at the crap on Coach's Corner and there price for the guys that authenticte there verses an auction house that has PSA or JSA autheticate items. 10 time less money there. So auction companies aren't going to say anything negative about them even if something is wrong. And to think that PSA or JSA would come on here if they authenticated something that was found not real will never happen. There not going to admit mistakes. Bad for business. They think they know more than anybody outside there company. There is some very smart experts outside of there companys and you would think maybe they would listen to some of there reasons. Like the old saying " You learn something new everyday" These comments are just my opinions and I'm sure not everyone agree.

+1,,, I agree with you.

[RichardSimon]

"The stronge survive",, from Jim Stinson's post above.
Did you mean strong or strange?? .

[travrosty]

Originally Posted by keithsky

Auction companies won"t blast any authentication service like PSA or JSA because it would hurt there business. If you figure them running an auction with no item authenticated by PSA or JSA there bidders will not be there and they'll lose money. Just look at the crap on Coach's Corner and there price for the guys that authenticte there verses an auction house that has PSA or JSA autheticate items. 10 time less money there. So auction companies aren't going to say anything negative about them even if something is wrong. And to think that PSA or JSA would come on here if they authenticated something that was found not real will never happen. There not going to admit mistakes. Bad for business. They think they know more than anybody outside there company. There is some very smart experts outside of there companys and you would think maybe they would listen to some of there reasons. Like the old saying " You learn something new everyday" These comments are just my opinions and I'm sure not everyone agree.

i do agree with you. they wont fire the people who wont show them exemplars or explain their decision when the true experts will do all those things willingly and no problem at all?

now why do auction houses continue to use the services that treat them like ship?

[toybulldog]

now why do auction houses continue to use the services that treat them like ship?

Because they relieve themselves of the responsibility. Are they treating the auction houses like ship or are the TPA's and the auction houses together treating customers and unsuspecting buyers like ship? If no one was watching the watchers on this particular item who knows how high the false TPA added value would have brought this item up?

[toybulldog]

an extremely well known , well respected collector and dealer in sports memorabilia for the past 25 years

What I would give to find out who that is.

We contacted a forensic ink lab and had it verified that the ink the gloves were signed in was available since 1962

An image or posting of the examination report would be interesting also.

[JimStinson]

This thread has gone on long enough, even actor Jeff Goldblum has posted a comment on it please take 4 seconds to view his comments regarding this issue and then please lets drop it

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-JFfN5pKzFU

[toybulldog]

When my name is mentioned in a thread I wasn't aware there would be a time limit for which I would be able to comment . If anyone would care to post on my thread be aware, there are no time constraints. Would like to dig a little deeper here but getting the impression it would rather be swept under.

[Mr. Zipper]

Originally Posted by JimStinson

I have a restaurant near my house who's sign reads "Worlds Greatest Hamburgers" ........Its a big world and I think their claim is probably false. BUT its a decent burger.
PSA says they are the worlds leading authenticator or whatever it is they say. Or the Best authentication service in the world or whatever.....Its called "marketing" and its up to the consumer of that product to determine if its not true or is true. If the business survives maybe that represents VALIDATION.
But there is a theory created by Darwin that says that in nature and origin of species, ESPECIALLY with regards to free enterprize that those that are not suited to their environment will not survive. TIME seperates fact from fiction. Naturally,
Despite anything we say or do. PSA has been in business for a good long while , ( I was there and I think its been about 12 years) If people want to spend their money there it is their CHOICE , Good or bad. They have every right to do it. My personal opinions OR ANYONE ELSES are invalid. The stronge survive , good eventually triumphs over evil.
So if collector "A" believes in that service and wants to spend his Bucks on it , I support him. And I support PSA , just as I support AAA, and AA and AARP and the NAACP or anything else you can place the letter "A" in ...because eventually ................TIME , not these posts will determine...fact from illusion. What a country !!!!
_________________________
Buying and selling Vintage autographs for over three decades
jim@stinsonsports.com

Very wise. +1

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by JimStinson

I have a restaurant near my house who's sign reads "Worlds Greatest Hamburgers" ........Its a big world and I think their claim is probably false. BUT its a decent burger.
PSA says they are the worlds leading authenticator or whatever it is they say. Or the Best authentication service in the world or whatever.....Its called "marketing" and its up to the consumer of that product to determine if its not true or is true. If the business survives maybe that represents VALIDATION.
But there is a theory created by Darwin that says that in nature and origin of species, ESPECIALLY with regards to free enterprize that those that are not suited to their environment will not survive. TIME seperates fact from fiction. Naturally,
Despite anything we say or do. PSA has been in business for a good long while , ( I was there and I think its been about 12 years) If people want to spend their money there it is their CHOICE , Good or bad. They have every right to do it. My personal opinions OR ANYONE ELSES are invalid. The stronge survive , good eventually triumphs over evil.
So if collector "A" believes in that service and wants to spend his Bucks on it , I support him. And I support PSA , just as I support AAA, and AA and AARP and the NAACP or anything else you can place the letter "A" in ...because eventually ................TIME , not these posts will determine...fact from illusion. What a country !!!!
_________________________
Buying and selling Vintage autographs for over three decades
jim@stinsonsports.com

PLUS TWO! So true,

Hopefully Travis will get to see them fold in his lifetime.
I almost got my wish when GM went BK and would have folded if not for a GOVT bailout In 1982 (That's a 30 year grudge!) Before the lemon law, I had a Pontirock Trans Am that blew up after 20,000 miles. It had a wire that kept poking me in my fat ass, ripping through the seat and my pants (3 times). An electric antenna that wouldn't stop going down (3 times). T-Tops that leaked (more than 10 times)...and that's just the cliff notes version.

I hadn't touched a GM product since then. I finally broke down a few months ago when I jumped back in with a 2007 Corvette, just for a new hobby. I saved some of the money for the car, that I usually would spend on Autographs after I just got sick up and fed with all the stinking Forgery Scams..... Especially sick of FDE's that don't know shit and for the most part are scammers themselves with ZERO integrity. Also sick of the "legitimate" Authenticators that are more error prone than Steve Sax.

PSA needs a good Romneying...(Going in and firing everyone)

[Fuddjcal]

Also,

I'd like to wish Ken Goldin the best on his upcoming Auction. It looks like a fantastic start!!!!

[toybulldog]

Originally Posted by JimStinson

I have a restaurant near my house who's sign reads "Worlds Greatest Hamburgers" ........Its a big world and I think their claim is probably false. BUT its a decent burger.
PSA says they are the worlds leading authenticator or whatever it is they say. Or the Best authentication service in the world or whatever.....Its called "marketing" and its up to the consumer of that product to determine if its not true or is true. If the business survives maybe that represents VALIDATION.
But there is a theory created by Darwin that says that in nature and origin of species, ESPECIALLY with regards to free enterprize that those that are not suited to their environment will not survive. TIME seperates fact from fiction. Naturally,
Despite anything we say or do. PSA has been in business for a good long while , ( I was there and I think its been about 12 years) If people want to spend their money there it is their CHOICE , Good or bad. They have every right to do it. My personal opinions OR ANYONE ELSES are invalid. The stronge survive , good eventually triumphs over evil.
So if collector "A" believes in that service and wants to spend his Bucks on it , I support him. And I support PSA , just as I support AAA, and AA and AARP and the NAACP or anything else you can place the letter "A" in ...because eventually ................TIME , not these posts will determine...fact from illusion. What a country !!!!
_________________________
Buying and selling Vintage autographs for over three decades
jim@stinsonsports.com

I'm not so sure that is a good analogy when compared to this situation. When you went to the burger joint you ordered the "world's greatest burger", the burger was served to you, you ate it and you know what you got. Here, in this particular case you are paying for a service and don't even know if the service is being performed the way it is being sold/advertised/marketed to you. PSA/DNA claims they do this with every autograph they analyze:


After seeing this particular auction lot, which was "authenticated" by PSA/DNA, how is is possible that this "four-level Authentication System" was performed and that PSA/DNA would then offer a LOA stating:

"The signature(s) is/are consistent considering slant, flow, pen pressure, letter size, and other characteristics that are typical of the other exemplars that we have examined in our hobby or professional career."

PSA/DNA could put this whole thing to rest, come on here and show us the other exemplars that are consistent and typical when compared to this auction lot but they choose not to.

Does collector "A" necessarily believe in these TPA services or are a majority of these auction houses telling him he needs to use them to be accepted by their service?

If PSA/DNA in this particular case does not have consistent exemplars or have any evidence to support the Marciano signed gloves then are they "strong" or are they "full of shit"?

Is their offering their LOA based on honesty and led by their conscience or is it a gift to a start-up auction house that they want to land to enhance their credibilty?

My problem isn't with them stating that they are the "world's leading autograph experts", my problem is with them stating they are "authenticators".

authenticate: to prove or serve to prove that something is genuine

As I've mentioned in another thread, according to the definition above I've never seen an autograph that has been authenticated by PSA/DNA. They don't prove or serve to prove anything. They only issue non-evidence based letters with vague and unsubstantiated comments.

I have alot more respect for the little burger joint serving up an honest product. PSA/DNA, are they serving a delicious burger or are they serving cat's eyes fried in snot?

I wish I was in a position to investigate but unfortunately I'm not. Bureau of Consumer Protection, FBI take note, press for answers. People being duped, people being financially harmed? $25,000 dollars? A thank you for pulling an item that isn't real?

[travrosty]

no one has ever been able to determine just what they do when they look at a piece. they claim to use exemplars. Well, where is the exemplars for the glove that they used? It's MIA.

they check slant, flow, pen pressure, really? did they use provenance as a crutch for this glove? how much did provenance factor into their determination?

There loa does not mention provenance as one of the factors they use in coming to an opinion.

They first authenticated a Thomas Sayers autograph for Heritage, then pulled their authentication after they got caught with no exemplars, but still believed the piece to be real. How? Must have been provenance. Believing the provenance is dangerous business. It is nice to have only after an autograph has been investigated, compared and authenticated in the first place. It can't take the place of exemplars.

[toybulldog]

They first authenticated a Thomas Sayers autograph for Heritage, then pulled their authentication after they got caught with no exemplars, but still believed the piece to be real. How? Must have been provenance. Believing the provenance is dangerous business. It is nice to have only after an autograph has been investigated, compared and authenticated in the first place. It can't take the place of exemplars.

I remember the Sayers incident, now lets revisit it because it does have many similarities to the PSA/DNA bogus authentication seen here. Heritage was auctioning this alledged 1859 Tom Sayers letter accepting a fight with American rival John C. Heenan:


Sayers signature is rare and no known authentic examples are kown yet Heritage's item description listed the item as including a full LOA from PSA/DNA and a full LOA from JSA:


Complaints from knowledgeable boxing collectors started to come in and the item description changed. Now the TPA's believe the item is authentic but are unable to issue paperwork due to lack of exemplars.

If there are no exemplars to compare to then how can they believe it is authentic?

Somewhere in there a friend of the hobby supplied us with a copy of Sayers' passport which was signed by him in 1860.



Note that Sayers was known to be illiterate and could only manage to sign his mark, an "X" which was witnessed by John Gideon.

Now looking at this objectively, if Sayers could only manage to sign an "x" in 1860 is it likely that he could sign his full name the year prior in 1859? And is it possible that not only did he sign his full name in 1859 but he also penned an entire acceptance letter to fight John C. Heenan? Now, not just a signature of Thomas Sayers but some of the most fabulous content that one could imagine?

Folks, do TPA's authenticate autographs for certain people/auction houses without having any consistent exemplars or supporting evidence?

Do they truly use their "Autograph Authentication Process" pictured in my previous post or is that a false claim/marketing tool?

Is the Tom Sayers eerily similar to the situation with the Marciano signed gloves?

Are some auction houses shown a favortism by this publicly traded company? Is their relationship with certain auction houses a cozy one?



Signed by Thomas Sayers or $10,755 elaborate hoax?

[travrosty]

they have exemplar brain freeze.


Here is an scp auction of a joe choynski autograph.

http://catalog.scpauctions.com/LotDe...spx?lotid=8717



It gives a full loa from PSA. It was from 2007 when they don't think anyone is going to question if they actually have exemplars or not.

recently a couple of Choynski autographs went off at heritage, but psa and jsa declined to rule because of lack of exemplars. Now people are questioning them so they bail on their claim that they actually have Choynski exemplars.


http://sports.ha.com/c/item.zx?saleNo=7065&lotNo=81202

http://sports.ha.com/c/item.zx?saleNo=7065&lotNo=82803

So how did the SCP Choynski autograph previoously get a PSA cert, (which the loa list that it was compared to exemplars), if it doesnt seem to have any choynski exemplars this time when these items were listed at heritage?

Seems like they are getting challenged and caught and didnt opine this time, but previously felt they could opine with exemplars that they didnt have? Notice they didn't even use the SCP Choynski autograph, which they claimed had exemplars to back that one up, as an exemplar for the two at heritage. Now they have no exemplars.

This is the big problem in the hobby. they try to get away with what they think they can get away with and they believe people are NOT paying attention.

So my question to PSA - Do you have Choynski autograph exemplars or not?

if not, what do you say to the person who bought the choynski autograph at SCP and proudly displays the psa cert that says it matches known exemplars? Are you recallibg the SCP Choynski cert and refunding the buyer?

In any other business in America, we all know what this represents.

This and the Sayers and others are a big BOXING FAIL!!!!!

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by toybulldog

Are some auction houses shown a favortism by this publicly traded company? Is their relationship with certain auction houses a cozy one?

It is a question I have been asking for a very long time.
Just asking, waiting for an answer.
And to add to the exemplar questions ,,, did they have exemplars of Ed Delahanty when they both authenticated an Ed Delehenty handwritten letter, that was eventually proven to be written by his manager/agent. If they had exemplars did they have one where he misspelled his own name??

[toybulldog]

Guys, I think they now know that they are being watched and can't get away with half of what they used to. You think you would have seen this in a Heritage listing just three or four years ago:

PSA/DNA and James Spence Authentication have declined to rule due to lack of exemplars.

No way, they'd be listed with full LOA PSA/DNA and full LOA JSA with a description of the finest example extant. Now they don't know who signed those Choynski's, his manager, wife, sister, mother, brother or the King of Siam for all they know.