Lot #4 in Goldin Auctions Rocky Marciano gloves have been PULLED. READ

[JimStinson]

After all the HOWLING & WHINING now everyone has NOTHING to say ???? WTF !
Hey if someone wants to be a "critic" or an "expert" you are either "ALL IN OR ALL OUT", you put your reputation and your ass on the line. You don;t "bail" when someone wants to discuss it legitimately like in a REAL conversation , and then maybe if one of the parties is sincere the situation is resolved. There has ALWAYS been more GOOD in this hobby/business than bad and this post proves it.

For starters at least give a Thank you for someone "KG" going above and beyond what would have been required for ANY business man to do.
_________________________
Buying and selling Vintage sports autographs for over 3 decades
jim@stinsonsports.com

[Mr. Zipper]

Originally Posted by JimStinson

After all the HOWLING & WHINING now everyone has NOTHING to say ???? WTF !
Hey if someone wants to be a "critic" or an "expert" you are either "ALL IN OR ALL OUT", you put your reputation and your ass on the line. You don;t "bail" when someone wants to discuss it legitimately like in a REAL conversation , and then maybe if one of the parties is sincere the situation is resolved. There has ALWAYS been more GOOD in this hobby/business than bad and this post proves it.

For starters at least give a Thank you for someone "KG" going above and beyond what would have been required for ANY business man to do.
_________________________
Buying and selling Vintage sports autographs for over 3 decades
jim@stinsonsports.com

+1,000

Kudos to Ken for going the extra mile to get it right.

BTW, it does not surprise me at all that some of the "experts" were MIA when it came time to help in a constructive way. As I have noted elsewhere previously, that is the M.O. and you only contributions you'll ever see is bashing TPAs.

[toybulldog]

Ken, I do thank you for the removal of the auction lot which contained the questionable signed Rocky Marciano gloves. No, I don’t expect you to hop to just because a post was made regarding the authenticity of the item. My only goal was to post the information and evidence I had which contradicted the authenticity of this item. As for PSA/DNA, I do not have the same opinion as yourself, do not respect them and have seen many questionable authentications and rejections made by them. This one to me was so atrocious and unjust that I felt obligated to make a post about it before someone was financially harmed. My invite for them to participate on the thread was sincere and I was looking forward to debating them on how they came to the conclusion that the Marciano signed gloves were authentic. I can’t imagine them having any supporting evidence and question their motive in authenticating these particular items. By their own choice they chose not to participate. I did not have to come see them in person to acquire the opinion that these items are not genuine as far as the autograph is concerned. When compared to late 1960’s or any other era of Marciano’s signature the signed gloves did not show resemblance and had many inconsistencies.
Your comment…
“ however in this instance feel that too many individuals in the boxing community feel so strongly that this cannot be Marciano’s autograph that we pulled the item. We will ALWAYS make the correct decision with anything we list in our auctions, and anything we feel we need to remove in our auctions.”
…. I can assure you, speaks volumes in the “boxing community” and your faith in us is much appreciated. PSA/DNA does not make an autograph real, nor does my name, Travis name or anyone else’s for that matter.
Ken, thanks again and pardon my delayed response as I was on earlier making another rant and did not notice your thread, you were not being ignored. Also thanks to Jim and Mike for your assistance and opinion.
Ken, also, Travis and myself did do a good going through with these autographs (See below what we comb through) and weren’t just blowing smoke or participating in a witch hunt against a TPA. We’re constantly collecting, documenting, agreeing, disagreeing. What PSA does, we just don't know?








Thumbs up!!
http://www.goldinauctions.com/

Best,
Mark O.

[travrosty]

i am not a paid service and neither is mark and these gloves were obvious from the beginning. did you see all the autographs mark posted above, how many did you get from psa???????????????

what more of a conversation did anyone want when i wrote emails five miles long explaining why it couldnt be marciano's siganture and psa gave no exemplars and no explanation, but of course it is always my fault and marks fault that these gloves are no good? why do i need to call for you to get it across that these gloves did not match any exemplars.

psa skates and gets off scott free and its my fault and marks fault that we were right! That's why a good deed never goes unpunished.

and if people appreciate psa's good work, i am sure they appreciate psa getting the weil manager signed marciano gloves wrong in a recent auction too.

the problem is that people do due diligence AFTER the fact when psa drops the ball and then need to pin it on somebody and its never psa's fault, joe orlando's fault, or steve grads fault. they do a great job, right?

remember, psa has brought you the following great authentications.

John l sullivan letter penned and signed secretarial letter.

bob fitzsimmons wife and manager signed autographs.

james jeffries, tom sharkey and corbett "signed" hotel registry all signed in the same hand.

manager signed dempsey signed photograph.

way too many joe louis "signed" photos and cuts to count that are worth zero.

75 muhammad ali signed photos in a row registered in their database as real that they wont authenticate as real anymore but they are floating out there somewhere in the hobby.

many sonny liston encapsulated and LOA'd "autographs" signed by his wife Geraldine.

An encapsulated Rocky Marciano autograph that is signed by Rocky Graziano.

A George Chuvalo autograph that they certified as Julio Cesar Chavez.

A so called authenticated signature of Battling Nelson on a photo of Terry McGovern.

this is a great job by them and remember that neither I nor Mark made these mistakes, so pinning these gloves on us doesn't wash. It's not our fault, we know boxing autographs, and I get emails all the time from authenticators asking for my help, and I don't need to call them on the phone.

call up joe orlando and see if he takes your call. see if he gives exemplars, and see if he will explain their authentication. they won't.

then come on here and say they do a great job. It's not my fault these gloves are no good and provenance is almost worthless this day and age as it can be easily manufactured. I have always been available to help, which is what I did, because it was a slam dunk and I explained my opinion thoroughly and just because I don't call on the phone doesn't mean i don't know boxing autographs. if you dont take my word or marks right away that they are bad, why do you take psa's word right off the bat that they are good? we didnt ask for you to take our word right away that they were bad, we wanted to prove it to you through exemplars, which we did, but psa's loa is so much more convincing that it is good with all the exemplars they provide?

ask mark when was the last time i called him on the phone?

Mark makes a great point when he says he knows how myself and him authenticate autographs, we take time, sometimes hours upon hours sifting through the largest exemplar files around to come to a careful decision. We don't know what psa does because to call a chuvalo autograph a chavez autograph is impossible in the world that me and mark live in. it cant happen because if someone doesnt know the difference between the two , they should be as far away from boxing autographs as they can be and do something else.

every time we have ever pointed out a bad mistake, the item gets pulled or there is no rebuttal from psa or jsa, we have had to issue no retractions. we are 100 for 100 because we dont go off half cocked. we take time to figure it out. we dont issue loa's like water.

[toybulldog]

BTW, it does not surprise me at all that some of the "experts" were MIA when it came time to help in a constructive way. As I have noted elsewhere previously, that is the M.O. and you only contributions you'll ever see is bashing TPAs.

If you are one that supports TPA's I would have to say that is the biggest projection I've ever heard. PSA/DNA was invited to come on here to discuss a bogus authentication with an estimated value of $25,000 and they chose not to participate. When it comes to posting evidence or giving an evidence based explanation they are always MIA. Doesn't anyone here want to see the entire "world's leading autograph experts" debate the lone "independant operator bread route salesman" over these Rocky Marciano signatures? Sounds like a damned monster movie?

[whitehse]

I didnt get involved in the original Marciano thread because, well, I dont know enough about the subject to even comment on it. I do applaud Ken for doing the right thing and pulling the plug on the auction. I do find it beyond crazy that PSA/DNA would not even dignify their work with a response. I wouldnt think they would come here to respond but at least an email to Ken would have been appropriate!

I have one question for Ken. Any chance you could pay my way to your offices so I could render my opinion on all the great stuff you have there? I have very little experience authenticating anything but I would love the opportunity to hang out and see what you have!! I could even report back to the members of the board.....kinda like a working vacation!!

Of course I kid but what a great trip that would be!!

[JimStinson]

I have a restaurant near my house who's sign reads "Worlds Greatest Hamburgers" ........Its a big world and I think their claim is probably false. BUT its a decent burger.
PSA says they are the worlds leading authenticator or whatever it is they say. Or the Best authentication service in the world or whatever.....Its called "marketing" and its up to the consumer of that product to determine if its not true or is true. If the business survives maybe that represents VALIDATION.
But there is a theory created by Darwin that says that in nature and origin of species, ESPECIALLY with regards to free enterprize that those that are not suited to their environment will not survive. TIME seperates fact from fiction. Naturally,
Despite anything we say or do. PSA has been in business for a good long while , ( I was there and I think its been about 12 years) If people want to spend their money there it is their CHOICE , Good or bad. They have every right to do it. My personal opinions OR ANYONE ELSES are invalid. The stronge survive , good eventually triumphs over evil.
So if collector "A" believes in that service and wants to spend his Bucks on it , I support him. And I support PSA , just as I support AAA, and AA and AARP and the NAACP or anything else you can place the letter "A" in ...because eventually ................TIME , not these posts will determine...fact from illusion. What a country !!!!
_________________________
Buying and selling Vintage autographs for over three decades
jim@stinsonsports.com

[kengoldin]

just as an FYI
I did speak to PSA and I have no issues with PSA/DNA They were very professional in the entire business and i appreciate them reaching out to me.
Please do not characterize them as not contacting me as that is not the case. You can all speak from your own experiences, but not mine

[travrosty]

they were so professional they showed you exemplars that they used when you asked for them?

when you get an oil change and change the oil filter, and ask to see the old filter to make sure they actually changed it and did the job they were paid to do and they wont show it to you, do you come back for more in the future?

you pay their salary, and they answer to you, not the other way around. are they going to get future work in your auction?

where are their exemplars used for these gloves. aren't you mad they won't show you any?

I would show any customer any exemplars they wanted to see and make them a hard copy on a flash drive fedexed to their house if they wanted it.

show just one exemplar you used, professional sports authenticators/DNA/BFF

[Mr. Zipper]

Originally Posted by JimStinson

I have a restaurant near my house who's sign reads "Worlds Greatest Hamburgers" ........Its a big world and I think their claim is probably false. BUT its a decent burger.
PSA says they are the worlds leading authenticator or whatever it is they say. Or the Best authentication service in the world or whatever.....Its called "marketing" and its up to the consumer of that product to determine if its not true or is true. If the business survives maybe that represents VALIDATION.
But there is a theory created by Darwin that says that in nature and origin of species, ESPECIALLY with regards to free enterprize that those that are not suited to their environment will not survive. TIME seperates fact from fiction. Naturally,
Despite anything we say or do. PSA has been in business for a good long while , ( I was there and I think its been about 12 years) If people want to spend their money there it is their CHOICE , Good or bad. They have every right to do it. My personal opinions OR ANYONE ELSES are invalid. The stronge survive , good eventually triumphs over evil.
So if collector "A" believes in that service and wants to spend his Bucks on it , I support him. And I support PSA , just as I support AAA, and AA and AARP and the NAACP or anything else you can place the letter "A" in ...because eventually ................TIME , not these posts will determine...fact from illusion. What a country !!!!
_________________________
Buying and selling Vintage autographs for over three decades
jim@stinsonsports.com

Very wise. +1

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by JimStinson

I have a restaurant near my house who's sign reads "Worlds Greatest Hamburgers" ........Its a big world and I think their claim is probably false. BUT its a decent burger.
PSA says they are the worlds leading authenticator or whatever it is they say. Or the Best authentication service in the world or whatever.....Its called "marketing" and its up to the consumer of that product to determine if its not true or is true. If the business survives maybe that represents VALIDATION.
But there is a theory created by Darwin that says that in nature and origin of species, ESPECIALLY with regards to free enterprize that those that are not suited to their environment will not survive. TIME seperates fact from fiction. Naturally,
Despite anything we say or do. PSA has been in business for a good long while , ( I was there and I think its been about 12 years) If people want to spend their money there it is their CHOICE , Good or bad. They have every right to do it. My personal opinions OR ANYONE ELSES are invalid. The stronge survive , good eventually triumphs over evil.
So if collector "A" believes in that service and wants to spend his Bucks on it , I support him. And I support PSA , just as I support AAA, and AA and AARP and the NAACP or anything else you can place the letter "A" in ...because eventually ................TIME , not these posts will determine...fact from illusion. What a country !!!!
_________________________
Buying and selling Vintage autographs for over three decades
jim@stinsonsports.com

PLUS TWO! So true,

Hopefully Travis will get to see them fold in his lifetime.
I almost got my wish when GM went BK and would have folded if not for a GOVT bailout In 1982 (That's a 30 year grudge!) Before the lemon law, I had a Pontirock Trans Am that blew up after 20,000 miles. It had a wire that kept poking me in my fat ass, ripping through the seat and my pants (3 times). An electric antenna that wouldn't stop going down (3 times). T-Tops that leaked (more than 10 times)...and that's just the cliff notes version.

I hadn't touched a GM product since then. I finally broke down a few months ago when I jumped back in with a 2007 Corvette, just for a new hobby. I saved some of the money for the car, that I usually would spend on Autographs after I just got sick up and fed with all the stinking Forgery Scams..... Especially sick of FDE's that don't know shit and for the most part are scammers themselves with ZERO integrity. Also sick of the "legitimate" Authenticators that are more error prone than Steve Sax.

PSA needs a good Romneying...(Going in and firing everyone)

[Fuddjcal]

Also,

I'd like to wish Ken Goldin the best on his upcoming Auction. It looks like a fantastic start!!!!

[toybulldog]

Originally Posted by JimStinson

I have a restaurant near my house who's sign reads "Worlds Greatest Hamburgers" ........Its a big world and I think their claim is probably false. BUT its a decent burger.
PSA says they are the worlds leading authenticator or whatever it is they say. Or the Best authentication service in the world or whatever.....Its called "marketing" and its up to the consumer of that product to determine if its not true or is true. If the business survives maybe that represents VALIDATION.
But there is a theory created by Darwin that says that in nature and origin of species, ESPECIALLY with regards to free enterprize that those that are not suited to their environment will not survive. TIME seperates fact from fiction. Naturally,
Despite anything we say or do. PSA has been in business for a good long while , ( I was there and I think its been about 12 years) If people want to spend their money there it is their CHOICE , Good or bad. They have every right to do it. My personal opinions OR ANYONE ELSES are invalid. The stronge survive , good eventually triumphs over evil.
So if collector "A" believes in that service and wants to spend his Bucks on it , I support him. And I support PSA , just as I support AAA, and AA and AARP and the NAACP or anything else you can place the letter "A" in ...because eventually ................TIME , not these posts will determine...fact from illusion. What a country !!!!
_________________________
Buying and selling Vintage autographs for over three decades
jim@stinsonsports.com

I'm not so sure that is a good analogy when compared to this situation. When you went to the burger joint you ordered the "world's greatest burger", the burger was served to you, you ate it and you know what you got. Here, in this particular case you are paying for a service and don't even know if the service is being performed the way it is being sold/advertised/marketed to you. PSA/DNA claims they do this with every autograph they analyze:


After seeing this particular auction lot, which was "authenticated" by PSA/DNA, how is is possible that this "four-level Authentication System" was performed and that PSA/DNA would then offer a LOA stating:

"The signature(s) is/are consistent considering slant, flow, pen pressure, letter size, and other characteristics that are typical of the other exemplars that we have examined in our hobby or professional career."

PSA/DNA could put this whole thing to rest, come on here and show us the other exemplars that are consistent and typical when compared to this auction lot but they choose not to.

Does collector "A" necessarily believe in these TPA services or are a majority of these auction houses telling him he needs to use them to be accepted by their service?

If PSA/DNA in this particular case does not have consistent exemplars or have any evidence to support the Marciano signed gloves then are they "strong" or are they "full of shit"?

Is their offering their LOA based on honesty and led by their conscience or is it a gift to a start-up auction house that they want to land to enhance their credibilty?

My problem isn't with them stating that they are the "world's leading autograph experts", my problem is with them stating they are "authenticators".

authenticate: to prove or serve to prove that something is genuine

As I've mentioned in another thread, according to the definition above I've never seen an autograph that has been authenticated by PSA/DNA. They don't prove or serve to prove anything. They only issue non-evidence based letters with vague and unsubstantiated comments.

I have alot more respect for the little burger joint serving up an honest product. PSA/DNA, are they serving a delicious burger or are they serving cat's eyes fried in snot?

I wish I was in a position to investigate but unfortunately I'm not. Bureau of Consumer Protection, FBI take note, press for answers. People being duped, people being financially harmed? $25,000 dollars? A thank you for pulling an item that isn't real?

[travrosty]

no one has ever been able to determine just what they do when they look at a piece. they claim to use exemplars. Well, where is the exemplars for the glove that they used? It's MIA.

they check slant, flow, pen pressure, really? did they use provenance as a crutch for this glove? how much did provenance factor into their determination?

There loa does not mention provenance as one of the factors they use in coming to an opinion.

They first authenticated a Thomas Sayers autograph for Heritage, then pulled their authentication after they got caught with no exemplars, but still believed the piece to be real. How? Must have been provenance. Believing the provenance is dangerous business. It is nice to have only after an autograph has been investigated, compared and authenticated in the first place. It can't take the place of exemplars.