Triple Crown!!

[CMIZ5290]

If alot of players have had better years than cabrera, i can't seem to recall them. 330 batting avg, 44 hrs., and 139 rbi's, hard to imagine a better year than that....

[majordanby]

If alot of players have had better years than cabrera, i can't seem to recall them. 330 batting avg, 44 hrs., and 139 rbi's, hard to imagine a better year than that....

http://www.baseball-reference.com/pl...homafr04.shtml

http://www.baseball-reference.com/pl...elleal01.shtml

http://www.baseball-reference.com/pl...odrial01.shtml

http://www.baseball-reference.com/pl...ruthba01.shtml

http://www.baseball-reference.com/pl...ujolal01.shtml

i can go on. and you're just using three variables - does steals, hits, OBP, OPS count? mike trout had 49 steals with only 5 caught stealing - he led the league in that category - is that worth anything in your book? what about runs? trout led the league in that category by a significant margin.

cabrera had a great year, but let's not go out on a limb and start calling his year historic. you likely did not read my post above, but i stated there that his numbers this year are similar to the ones he posted just two years ago.

[Matthew80]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

If alot of players have had better years than cabrera, i can't seem to recall them. 330 batting avg, 44 hrs., and 139 rbi's, hard to imagine a better year than that....

It actually happens quite often, just scroll through the league leaders over the years. It happened seemingly throughout the career of Babe Ruth. His career average and average annual HR and RBI numbers exceeds that of Cabrera's 2012 year, and he never won it. The fact that Bonds didn't win the Triple Crown during the early 2000's, the greatest and most complete offensive seasons ever, shows just how highly contextual that achievement is.

I think an interesting and revealing thought experiment would be to think about whether Cabrera should be MVP if Hamilton or Granderson had gotten 45 HR's. Neither of those sluggers had the year Trout or Cabrera did, so it wouldn't rob votes away from Cabrera or Trout, and it would have the added virtue of removing the Triple Crown from Cabrera's year while not diminishing his #s.

Trout's AVG/OBP/SLG, an offensive line that better reflects value than AVG/HR/RBI, is so very, very close to Cabrera's, that his overwhelming defensive superiority and ABSOLUTELY ridiculous baserunning superiority makes him the MVP, in my judgment.

It's a true shame Cabrera didn't play in the National League: he could legitimately and rightfully win an MVP while not relying on (or achieving) such a highly contextual feat, and he could keep that dirty cheat Braun from winning an MVP.

[Piratedogcardshows]

Winning the first Triple Crown in 40 plus years has to be a lock for MVP no doubt.Trout can have the ROY he will get his MVP one day.

[bn2cardz]

Originally Posted by Matthew80

Trout's AVG/OBP/SLG, an offensive line that better reflects value than AVG/HR/RBI, is so very, very close to Cabrera's, that his overwhelming defensive superiority and ABSOLUTELY ridiculous baserunning superiority makes him the MVP, in my judgment.

Cabrera had better plate patience. Trout struck out/plate appearance was .249 compared to Cabrera's .158. OBP is important, but sometimes you can be helpful when you at least put the ball in play. So when your OBP is off by only 3/1000th of a point then you have to look at other stats.

Cabrera also had a PA/RBI average of .223 compared to Trout's .130. So at the plate Cabrera was more helpful to his team.

On the bases Trout is obviously better.

For defense, Cabrera is ranked number 3 on Fielding Percentage for 3rd basemen, and Trout is ranked at number 5 of Center Fielders (19 for Fielding Percentage among all Out Fielders).

So it is pretty close. I can see why the voters have to really think about it. Though I would go with Cabrera.

[bn2cardz]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

If alot of players have had better years than cabrera, i can't seem to recall them. 330 batting avg, 44 hrs., and 139 rbi's, hard to imagine a better year than that....

Only looking at 90's and 2000s:
Manny Ramirez in 1999 .333/44/165
Todd Helton in 2001 .336/49/146 (2000 was off by 2hrs, .372/42/147)

There were others who were better in two of the three categories only missing the third by a slight amount (96 Mo Vaugh, 01 Luis Gonzalez, 06 Pujols)

[novakjr]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

If alot of players have had better years than cabrera, i can't seem to recall them. 330 batting avg, 44 hrs., and 139 rbi's, hard to imagine a better year than that....

I can pick out 4 seasons from Albert Belle, sure the avg wasn't up to par in 2 of them, but the other numbers were insane. also two from frank thomas..

Miggy this year .330 avg 44 HR, 40 2B, 139 RBI, 109 R.

Frank Thomas 1994 ..352 avg 38 HR 34 2B 101 RBI 106 R 113 games
Albert Belle 1994 .357 avg 36 HR 35 2B 101 RBI 90 R 106 games
Albert Belle 1995. .317 avg. 50 HR, 52 2B, 126 RBI, 121 R. 143 games
Albert Belle 1996 .311 avg 48 HR 45 2B 148 RBI, 126 R
Albert Belle 1998 .328 avg 49 HR 48 2B 152 RBI 113 R
Frank Thomas 2000 ..328 avg 43 HR 44 2B 143 RBI 115 R

the '94 seasons don't quite seem to matchup, but let's not forget the strike.

Now Belle's '95 numbers in only 143 due to the strike are absolutely ridiculous..

I'm not knocking Miggy, he's got my vote. But to say that his numbers this season are nearly unheard of is silly..

[CMIZ5290]

I never said his numbers were unheard of, my first point in the thread was that i did not see how a triple crown winner could not get the vote for mvp.

[novakjr]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

I never said his numbers were unheard of, my first point in the thread was that i did not see how a triple crown winner could not get the vote for mvp.

Given how long it's been since there's been a triple crown winner, I can completely agree..There should be no doubt. But the fact that Trout even casts even the slightest doubt, really says something about the season he had..

Miggy's got it for me. But at the same time, the triple crown is somewhat arbitrary, and in this case, kinda based on other players shortcomings.. Let's say Bautista and Encarnacion don't get hurt coming down the stretch. Or Josh Hamilton doesn't have a Pepsi hangover, then we probably aren't even having this conversation..

Let's also not forget that Miggy led the league in GIDP with 28, but then again, that stat's as circumstantial as RBI's are..

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by novakjr

given how long it's been since there's been a triple crown winner, i can completely agree..there should be no doubt. But the fact that trout even casts even the slightest doubt, really says something about the season he had..

Miggy's got it for me. But at the same time, the triple crown is somewhat arbitrary, and in this case, kinda based on other players shortcomings.. Let's say bautista and encarnacion don't get hurt coming down the stretch. Or josh hamilton doesn't have a pepsi hangover, then we probably aren't even having this conversation..

Let's also not forget that miggy led the league in gidp with 28, but then again, that stat's as circumstantial as rbi's are..

i do want to make one point very clear, even though i think cabrera should get the mvp, if i was starting a team today i would rather have trout.....

[chaddurbin]

in 50 years i'll still remember miguel cabrera getting the triple crown in 2012, but trout is the mvp.

[Matthew80]

Originally Posted by chaddurbin

in 50 years i'll still remember miguel cabrera getting the triple crown in 2012, but trout is the mvp.

Well said.

I'm with all the stat nerds who vote for Trout as MVP, but I'm glad I got to follow Cabrera's chase at a Triple Crown. Despite its reliance on archaic #s, those are traditional #s I studied on my '87 Topps cards, and I'll no longer think "Yaz" when thinking of the Triple Crown.

Here's to hoping more refined and valuable #s find their way onto the next generation of Topps cards