PAWN STARS Shoeless Joe Jackson signed book...

[blackbetsy]

The question I have for PSA and their so-called experts is this: Has anyone there given any thought to the fact that the same characteristics that apply to tracing (i.e., pressure points, delays, etc., etc......), pretty much apply to someone such as Joe Jackson who would have been "drawing" his name based on a pattern taught him by his wife. I interviewed Eugene Estes (and that name means little to history, except that he witnessed Joe signing his Will). Mr. Estes told me that Joe struggled to sign his name, that he practiced on the back on an envelope three times before setting pen to paper on the Will. Mr. Estes said Joe stopped several times during the signing, which in my opinion would make it looked "traced". Now, I am not saying PSA got it wrong, but there is enough reasonable doubt in my mind that if I were Rick Harrison, I'd have it forensically tested for period ink and that the ink had been on the page for a period of between 1947 (when the book was published) and December 5, 1951 (The date Joe Jackson ceased to be a living entity). The signature on the book looks different than the one that appears on his will, but the one on his will appears different that the one that appears on his 1941 mortgage note and that one appears different that the one on his 1949 drivers license. In other words.....all his signatures different somewhat, since he was just tracing a pattern taught to him by his wife Katie. I sent Rick Harrison an email and told him as much. But I do agree that the piece appeared to be staged for TV....as Rick has almost always went to one of his "experts" when he was about to lay out that much cash for something.

Mike Nola
Official Historian
The Shoeless Joe Jackson Virtual Hall of Fame Web Site
http://www.blackbetsy.com/
Home of the Joe Jackson model Louisville Slugger baseball bat offer.
The voice said "Build it and they will come".........and they have!!!!!

[MVSNYC]

all good points. i also found it funny when his expert (after he purchased it) said it looks like it was signed "slowly"...NO SH*T! it was (if truly signed by Joe's hand) signed by an illiterate person who can't write, so of course it was executed slowly.

[Deertick]

Originally Posted by blackbetsy

The question I have for PSA and their so-called experts is this: Has anyone there given any thought to the fact that the same characteristics that apply to tracing (i.e., pressure points, delays, etc., etc......), pretty much apply to someone such as Joe Jackson who would have been "drawing" his name based on a pattern taught him by his wife. I interviewed Eugene Estes (and that name means little to history, except that he witnessed Joe signing his Will). Mr. Estes told me that Joe struggled to sign his name, that he practiced on the back on an envelope three times before setting pen to paper on the Will. Mr. Estes said Joe stopped several times during the signing, which in my opinion would make it looked "traced". Now, I am not saying PSA got it wrong, but there is enough reasonable doubt in my mind that if I were Rick Harrison, I'd have it forensically tested for period ink and that the ink had been on the page for a period of between 1947 (when the book was published) and December 5, 1951 (The date Joe Jackson ceased to be a living entity). The signature on the book looks different than the one that appears on his will, but the one on his will appears different that the one that appears on his 1941 mortgage note and that one appears different that the one on his 1949 drivers license. In other words.....all his signatures different somewhat, since he was just tracing a pattern taught to him by his wife Katie. I sent Rick Harrison an email and told him as much. But I do agree that the piece appeared to be staged for TV....as Rick has almost always went to one of his "experts" when he was about to lay out that much cash for something.

Mike Nola
Official Historian
The Shoeless Joe Jackson Virtual Hall of Fame Web Site
http://www.blackbetsy.com/
Home of the Joe Jackson model Louisville Slugger baseball bat offer.
The voice said "Build it and they will come".........and they have!!!!!

In that scenario, why would the 'e' in Joe have been erased and redrawn? Why would it be smooth flowing, relative to known sigs? Why would he sign a BOOK (that was already signed by his wife on his behalf), when he was so apprehensive to sign his MORTGAGE and WILL?

[murphusa]

I find it hard to believe that most of you don't know that American Pickers, Pawn Stars, Storage Units show and the such are staged. If they didn't f up once in a while you might belive they aren't true.

A friend in central PA who was on Pickers a year or so ago, said they spent 3 days getting things right at his house just to buy one gun

[Rob D.]

Excellent point, Jim.

Discussing why certain things do or don't happen on Pawn Stars is like debating why Norm always sat at the end of the bar on Cheers or why Richie couldn't get a date for the prom on Happy Days.

Why? Because that's the way the scripts are written.

[oriolesbb6]

Agreed-remeber it's TV. My brother in law occasionally films reality shows for his co. based out of Philly. The producers search the area for the right locale and then truck the items in for staging(Pickers, Storage Wars, etc.)....

[yanks12025]

I know all shows are staged, but was hoping at least a little part of American Pickers was real but guess not.

[dell webb]

Originally Posted by yanks12025

I know all shows are staged, but was hoping at least a little part of American Pickers was real but guess not.

Several years ago I talked at length with an older gentleman at an auction . He was on American Pickers in one of the earlier episodes. If any of you remember seeing the show he was the guy that had the general store and White Castle restaurant in his side yard. The pickers arrived at his place unannounced as they were given a tip from one of the locals that he might have some stuff for sale. The guy told me that the only thing that was staged was when he answered the front door because the first time that they knocked his wife answered. Other than that he said it was like the cameras weren't even there. He said that nothing at all was scripted. He regretted not selling more stuff but said they were great guys.

My family and I also visited their shop in Leclaire Iowa several years ago and talked to the girl that was working that day. Unfortunately it was Danielle's day off but this girl was just as nice. She said that when they're picking the cameras are always rolling but nothing is staged and the guys are just like they are on the show in real life.

[Matthew H]

Originally Posted by yanks12025

I know all shows are staged, but was hoping at least a little part of American Pickers was real but guess not.

Part of it is real. They really do go freestyle. They just spend a few hours reshooting the chance meeting after they dig around. I don't work on that show but I've seen raw takes.

Edit: I noticed Dell Webb already answered this. You can't say the same thing about the pawn stars though

[Ringking]

Originally Posted by oriolesbb6

Agreed-remeber it's TV. My brother in law occasionally films reality shows for his co. based out of Philly. The producers search the area for the right locale and then truck the items in for staging(Pickers, Storage Wars, etc.)....

So when John Mackey signed autographs for the last 5-10 years of his life, his wife would have her hand on his and move it to form the letters because HE forgot how to look at his name and sign it and how to follow things. So by her moving his hand around, does it still make it a JOHN MACKEY autograph?

This is a man who goes around saying he is the ONLY person alive that can authenticate a shoeless joe jackson autograph and to have done it

http://walkersresearch.com/profilePa...100002364.html

How can this person be so wrong?

PSA, who the book was sent to says the autograph looks to be traced, and even erased and re-written...

HOW CAN A EXPERT miss this?

Not long ago, John Rezinkoff says a AL RUDDY is a AL PACINO on the same show, and now, his co-worker mistakes a Shoeless Joe?

[Gary Dunaier]

I think Joe Jackson's autograph is common and not rare.

[travrosty]

Originally Posted by Ringking

So when John Mackey signed autographs for the last 5-10 years of his life, his wife would have her hand on his and move it to form the letters because HE forgot how to look at his name and sign it and how to follow things. So by her moving his hand around, does it still make it a JOHN MACKEY autograph?

This is a man who goes around saying he is the ONLY person alive that can authenticate a shoeless joe jackson autograph and to have done it

http://walkersresearch.com/profilePa...100002364.html

How can this person be so wrong?

PSA, who the book was sent to says the autograph looks to be traced, and even erased and re-written...

HOW CAN A EXPERT miss this?

Not long ago, John Rezinkoff says a AL RUDDY is a AL PACINO on the same show, and now, his co-worker mistakes a Shoeless Joe?

0 for 2 on pawn stars. but they are the WORLDS experts so there you have it.

[Deertick]

Originally Posted by oriolesbb6

Agreed-remeber it's TV. My brother in law occasionally films reality shows for his co. based out of Philly.

Does that include "Sunny"?

[cobblove]

so the guy had it authenticated 18 years ago and didnt do reasearch on the value until now? Not sure about this whole story on the seller.

[drc]

The story seems fakey on many levels (not mentioning the scripted lines). Including offering $13,000 for something where the offerer says he doesn't know whether or not it's real. Don't believe it.

As noted, the guy having had the book authenticated 18 years ago but not realizing a Joe Jackson signature is rare and valuable seems, shall we say, unlikely.

I like how he casually flips back and forth (and carries around town) with his bare hands a Joe Jackson signed book. Maybe they were using a Daniel Steele paperback as a prop in those scenes.

But it's when he swats the fly with the book and cleans the book in the dishwasher, that's when credibility is finally lost.

However, the autograph exert was pretty cute, so everything evens out.

Moral of the story: Only use cute authenticators.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by drc

The story seems fakey on many levels (not mentioning the scripted lines). Including offering $13,000 for something where the offerer says he doesn't know whether or not it's real. Don't believe it.

As noted, the guy having had the book authenticated 18 years ago but not realizing a Joe Jackson signature is rare and valuable seems, shall we say, unlikely.

I like how he casually flips back and forth (and carries around town) with his bare hands a Joe Jackson signed book.

+1 My thoughts exactly - when Rebecca told him it was fake, he should have been crapping his pants, but he's just not that good of an actor. Now the show will have more appeal because there's bigger risk involved. Before, it was high-wire with a safety net - now they've given the illusion that the safety net is gone.

[thebigtrain]

Discussing why certain things do or don't happen on Pawn Stars is like debating why Norm always sat at the end of the bar on Cheers or why Richie couldn't get a date for the prom on Happy Days.

Why? Because that's the way the scripts are written.

Cheers was the first smoke-free bar, 20 years before it became the law. What a joke.


Also why was a grown man like Fonz always hanging out in the men's room with teenage schoolboys? If that was today there'd be rumours galore about what was going on in there, and probably a sting operation.

[yanks12025]

The american pickers were just in my town last week.

[blackbetsy]

Did I miss something here. Has there been talk of the "E" in Joe being erased and re-drawn? If so, I apologize I missed that. I sure didn't see it in the images sent to me of the book, does not appear to have been erased or anything of that nature. Again, I'm not saying it's a legitimate Joe Jackson signature (one actually signed by him), what I am saying is that the autograph is close enough to Joe's signature late in his life that I would at least have it forensically tested if I owned the book. No disrespect, but Rick's so called "book expert" used a signed baseball as her bell weather of all things Joe Jackson signed. If anyone here has tried to sign a baseball, it's a difficult proposition at best, let alone for someone who can't read or write. Sure it was shakey compared to the one of the book....two things in play here, one, Joe signed the ball early in his life and on a round surface to boot, two the book was signed on a flat surface, later in life after Jackson would have had more practice signing things. The ball was most likely signed in the presence of other players and Joe would have rushed that. The book on the other hand was probably signed at home with Katie's help. From the dozen or so folks that I have had conversations with over the years about asking Joe for an autograph, he always told them to leave the item with him (saying he was too busy to sign at the moment) and to come back tomorrow and pick the item up. Most of these things (mostly balls) where autographed at home by Katie that night and Joe took them back to the liquor store the next day for the person to pick up. The book being a flat item and depending on who it was for, Joe may have signed the item himself if it was for a close friend or as a favor to a friend...who knows....I'm making up scenarios here, but you get my drift, there is enough reasonable doubt in my mind and from what I am seeing in the images I have been sent....that if I owned the book.....I'd be forensically testing it to rule out that part of it. For me, this book is just another mystery about Joe Jackson that we will probably never know the truth about. But it's fun trying to figure it out.

Mike
Official Historian
The Shoeless Joe Jackson Virtual Hall of Fame Web Site
http://www.blackbetsy.com/
Home of the Joe Jackson model Louisville Slugger baseball bat offer.
The voice said "Build it and they will come".........and they have!!!!!

[ibuysportsephemera]

Originally Posted by blackbetsy

Did I miss something here. Has there been talk of the "E" in Joe being erased and re-drawn? If so, I apologize I missed that. I sure didn't see it in the images sent to me of the book, does not appear to have been erased or anything of that nature. Again, I'm not saying it's a legitimate Joe Jackson signature (one actually signed by him), what I am saying is that the autograph is close enough to Joe's signature late in his life that I would at least have it forensically tested if I owned the book. No disrespect, but Rick's so called "book expert" used a signed baseball as her bell weather of all things Joe Jackson signed. If anyone here has tried to sign a baseball, it's a difficult proposition at best, let alone for someone who can't read or write. Sure it was shakey compared to the one of the book....two things in play here, one, Joe signed the ball early in his life and on a round surface to boot, two the book was signed on a flat surface, later in life after Jackson would have had more practice signing things. The ball was most likely signed in the presence of other players and Joe would have rushed that. The book on the other hand was probably signed at home with Katie's help. From the dozen or so folks that I have had conversations with over the years about asking Joe for an autograph, he always told them to leave the item with him (saying he was too busy to sign at the moment) and to come back tomorrow and pick the item up. Most of these things (mostly balls) where autographed at home by Katie that night and Joe took them back to the liquor store the next day for the person to pick up. The book being a flat item and depending on who it was for, Joe may have signed the item himself if it was for a close friend or as a favor to a friend...who knows....I'm making up scenarios here, but you get my drift, there is enough reasonable doubt in my mind and from what I am seeing in the images I have been sent....that if I owned the book.....I'd be forensically testing it to rule out that part of it. For me, this book is just another mystery about Joe Jackson that we will probably never know the truth about. But it's fun trying to figure it out.

Mike
Official Historian
The Shoeless Joe Jackson Virtual Hall of Fame Web Site
http://www.blackbetsy.com/
Home of the Joe Jackson model Louisville Slugger baseball bat offer.
The voice said "Build it and they will come".........and they have!!!!!

Even if you got it tested forensically, my understanding is that the forgers used period ink on higher end items. So the ink would match up...correct?

Jeff

[bn2cardz]

Originally Posted by blackbetsy

Did I miss something here. Has there been talk of the "E" in Joe being erased and re-drawn? If so, I apologize I missed that.
Mike
Official Historian
The Shoeless Joe Jackson Virtual Hall of Fame Web Site
http://www.blackbetsy.com/
Home of the Joe Jackson model Louisville Slugger baseball bat offer.
The voice said "Build it and they will come".........and they have!!!!!

It came up when they were reading the letter from PSA/DNA on the episode.

[Herman Darvick]

Originally Posted by blackbetsy

Did I miss something here. Has there been talk of the "E" in Joe being erased and re-drawn? If so, I apologize I missed that. I sure didn't see it in the images sent to me of the book, does not appear to have been erased or anything of that nature. Again, I'm not saying it's a legitimate Joe Jackson signature (one actually signed by him), what I am saying is that the autograph is close enough to Joe's signature late in his life that I would at least have it forensically tested if I owned the book. No disrespect, but Rick's so called "book expert" used a signed baseball as her bell weather of all things Joe Jackson signed. If anyone here has tried to sign a baseball, it's a difficult proposition at best, let alone for someone who can't read or write. Sure it was shakey compared to the one of the book....two things in play here, one, Joe signed the ball early in his life and on a round surface to boot, two the book was signed on a flat surface, later in life after Jackson would have had more practice signing things. The ball was most likely signed in the presence of other players and Joe would have rushed that. The book on the other hand was probably signed at home with Katie's help. From the dozen or so folks that I have had conversations with over the years about asking Joe for an autograph, he always told them to leave the item with him (saying he was too busy to sign at the moment) and to come back tomorrow and pick the item up. Most of these things (mostly balls) where autographed at home by Katie that night and Joe took them back to the liquor store the next day for the person to pick up. The book being a flat item and depending on who it was for, Joe may have signed the item himself if it was for a close friend or as a favor to a friend...who knows....I'm making up scenarios here, but you get my drift, there is enough reasonable doubt in my mind and from what I am seeing in the images I have been sent....that if I owned the book.....I'd be forensically testing it to rule out that part of it. For me, this book is just another mystery about Joe Jackson that we will probably never know the truth about. But it's fun trying to figure it out.

Mike
Official Historian
The Shoeless Joe Jackson Virtual Hall of Fame Web Site
http://www.blackbetsy.com/
Home of the Joe Jackson model Louisville Slugger baseball bat offer.
The voice said "Build it and they will come".........and they have!!!!!

Mike, I assumed the "e" was erased and gone over because that's what PSA/DNA said. I do not remember any erasures when I authenticated the signature 18 1/2 years ago, but it was 18 1/2 years ago. In any event, I agree with you wholeheartedly that it should be brought to an autograph expert, especially one who has access to a Video Spectral Comparator used by handwriting experts to determine authenticity. --- Herman hdarvick@yahoo.com

[Herman Darvick]

Originally Posted by Deertick

In that scenario, why would the 'e' in Joe have been erased and redrawn? Why would it be smooth flowing, relative to known sigs? Why would he sign a BOOK (that was already signed by his wife on his behalf), when he was so apprehensive to sign his MORTGAGE and WILL?

The book was not signed by his wife. The collector wrote "Shoeless Joe Jackson" to identify who signed it. When she signed her husband's autograph, she would sign "Joe Jackson," never adding "Shoeless." Besides, it is just not her handwriting. Jackson wanted his autograph to look good. That's why he practiced before he signed his will. He evidently screwed up on the "e" so he erased it and rewrote it. Do you really think a forger would be so dumb that he would erase a letter and rewrite it? hdarvick@yahoo.com

[Herman Darvick]

Originally Posted by Deertick

In that scenario, why would the 'e' in Joe have been erased and redrawn? Why would it be smooth flowing, relative to known sigs? Why would he sign a BOOK (that was already signed by his wife on his behalf), when he was so apprehensive to sign his MORTGAGE and WILL?

That's not Jackson's wife signing his name. That's the collector writing the name of the person who signed the page because, while "Joe" is legible, "Jackson" is sloppy.