This is the problem with grading...

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by brob28

Peter, it's been a long thread (I have read completely) so forgive me if I'm repeating a previous question. Say you are interested in a card and you decide you are willing to pay up to $5,000 for it. In the bidding for the card all bidders drop out at $3,500. All except the owner who shill bids you up to $5,000. After the auction you learn that the seller has shilled you up another $1,500 - this really would not bother you at all? You would not call the seller to discuss the shill bids?

What I'm really getting at here is the price for any item is what the market will bear. By shill bidding the seller created an artificially strong market for the item, effectively forcing you to overpay the market cost of the item.

That would definately bother me.

Your example seems different from mine where the seller has made a predetermination that he will only sell for $5000, and so in effect places a hidden reserve at that level through a shill. If someone is just encouraged by my $3500 bid to see if I will go higher, that seems different, but I haven't completely thought it through, I may be on a slippery slope myself perhaps.

[brob28]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Your example seems different from mine where the seller has made a predetermination that he will only sell for $5000, and so in effect places a hidden reserve at that level through a shill. If someone is just encouraged by my $3500 bid to see if I will go higher, that seems different, but I haven't completely thought it through, I may be on a slippery slope myself perhaps.

Fair enough, it certainly can get slippery.

Good night, gentlemen.

[botn]

When selling we want as much as we can get for something and when buying we want to pay the least. Most here sell very little and are accumulators/collectors. I am active in both aspects of the hobby. In Peter's scenario, where a consignor has a level in mind at which they will let something go and they place a protective bid at that level, I really do not have an issue with it. I can bid and win it or not. I would like to win it for less but obviously this particular card is not available for less, at this time. I really do not care who my competition is when buying or bidding. I know what I can afford to spend and what something is worth to me and that is what determines my bids on ebay or in any other format.

[Clutch-Hitter]

So what happens when you accidentally win your own auction? I'm asking because shilling my own has never occurred to me. When I list, there's a reserve or buy it now option for that.

[botn]

Greg,

Not sure if you were asking me but I do not mind answering the question but my post was about my perspective as a buyer. I do not consign much of my inventory as I sell most of it myself on eBay or through direct sales. On eBay I use higher opening bids on cards I am concerned may not get to a level where I would be comfortable letting them go. Or I stick them in my store for all of you to ignore and use the Or Best Offer option. If those items do not sell after a period of time I either consign them to larger auction houses or I list them at 1 cent and hold my breath. In either case I am typically let down with the results.

The auction format, with all of its flaws, has become the most successful method for transacting business in this hobby. Buyers are empowered and feel they get to set their own price and control the transaction by setting the price they are willing to pay. This is not typical of how most retail business is conducted.

I do not believe people should have to pay the maximum they are willing to pay for an item but I think some buyers' objectives with protective bids or hidden reserves has to do with the threat it poses to a purely natural auction process of interested buyer versus interested buyer.

Greg

[Clutch-Hitter]

Greg, thanks and sorry I left Peter's name out as the primary person to which my question was directed. I forgot to mention starting the auction at a higher price in addition to buy it now and the reserve feature, and that I too hold my breath starting at .99 or .01.

If I'm understanding right, the term Hidden reserve is being used in place of shill bid and this is different than a maximum hidden reserve, both of which are known only by the seller. These are based on subjective percentages of what the seller expects the card to sell for and differentiated by whether or not the seller has knowledge of the highest bid.

So what happens when your competitor, that is the person bidding against you for your card, loses to you?

[Peter_Spaeth]

If a consignor wins his own card, then he tries to sell it again, or in a different format, or someplace else. This happens constantly, as many threads noting how soon after auctions cards appear someplace else attest to. It's just a fact of life -- people aren't giving cards away, for the most part. The good news about ebay is that nobody can see your snipe.