This is the problem with grading...

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Honestly, this is not a big issue for me. If pank21 doesn't want to let a card go under a certain amount, Rick can accomplish the same result with a minimum bid or an undisclosed reserve, or letting pank21 put in a bid at that amount, and it makes no difference to me what route he takes to get there. Where shill bidding bothers me is where the auction house knows a max bid (not possible for an ebay seller) and tells the consignor so they can run up the max bidder.

Is everyone on here really so pure that they have NEVER bid on a card they consigned, or asked a friend to bid on a card they were auctioning? Somehow, I doubt it.

Yeah, feel free to ridicule me for condoning FRAUD!!

NOW you're enjoying the hobby! Congratulations.

[Peter_Spaeth]

And the response on the merits is? I missed that.

[nolemmings]

Is everyone on here really so pure that they have NEVER bid on a card they consigned, or asked a friend to bid on a card they were auctioning? Somehow, I doubt it.

I have not--ever. And I'm far from pure.

And it does make a difference to me if he shills as opposed to having a minimum bid or reserve price. Maybe the auction house scenario you described is worse, but that doesn't mean this guy didn't cheat too.

[Peter_Spaeth]

To me, it's like seeing a patient (the hobby) with a broken back and focusing on his hangnail.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

I have not--ever. And I'm far from pure.

And it does make a difference to me if he shills as opposed to having a minimum bid or reserve price. Maybe the auction house scenario you described is worse, but that doesn't mean this guy didn't cheat too.

Agreed. I read somewhere in this thread where somebody wrote that the shill didn't really matter because it didn't afftect the final price. That's not the point. The point is, if people are willing to shill small items/amounts, they're also willing to shill larger items/amounts.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Agreed. I read somewhere in this thread where somebody wrote that the shill didn't really matter because it didn't afftect the final price. That's not the point. The point is, if people are willing to shill small items/amounts, they're also willing to shill larger items/amounts.

If the "shill" is merely a substitute for an opening bid or a reserve -- that is, the price the consignor is willing to let the card go for -- I don't see this concern. Would you feel better if Rick just puts reserves on cards, and WHY would that make you feel any better?

[HRBAKER]

Peter,
Functionally what you say is right. My question would be why not just start the bidding at the lowest acceptable amount or install a reserve? My assumption is that the somewhere someone has determined that starting at a lower opener and creating the perception of an absolute/real auction (illusory or not) would result in more action and a higher result. If you have a "shill" then this is not what you end up with, an absolute auction that is.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by HRBAKER

Peter,
Functionally what you say is right. My question would be why not just start the bidding at the lowest acceptable amount or install a reserve? My assumption is that the somewhere someone has determined that starting at a lower opener and creating the perception of an absolute/real auction (illusory or not) would result in more action and a higher result. If you have a "shill" then this is not what you end up with, an absolute auction that is.

Well I agree in my hypothetical it's not really an absolute auction, but I'm not sure why I should care, either way, the card is only available over a certain price, and so be it.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

If the "shill" is merely a substitute for an opening bid or a reserve -- that is, the price the consignor is willing to let the card go for -- I don't see this concern. Would you feel better if Rick just puts reserves on cards, and WHY would that make you feel any better?

Here is the problem with a shill being the substitute for an opening bid or reserve. Let's say Rick has a card that the consignor wants to get $500 for. Rick starts the auction at $.99 and the consignor places a bid of $499 (substitute for a reserve) to protect his card. At this point the high bid is only $.99 because he is the first bidder. Another bidder comes along and bids $500 on the card. Immediately the price goes to $500 because the consignor's proxy was $499. No other bids are placed and bidder number 2 wins the card for $500.

Now, one could argue that bidder number 2 was willing to spend $500 on the card in the first place so there was no harm done, but without the shill (or however you want to sugar coat it), he might have won the card considerably cheaper if it were a true $.99 auction with no shills.

On the particular card in question, it wouldn't have made a difference because the other bids were much higher than the shills. But how many other cards has this happened with from this particular consignor (pank21) where his "hidden reserves" drove the price up unnecessarily?

[Peter_Spaeth]

David I don't see the difference. Case 1, there is an opening bid of 500, or a reserve of 500. You win if you bid 500, you lose if you don't. Case 2, an auction that looks absolute but is really shilled, you win if you bid 500, you don't get the card if you bid less. Same difference. Of course, IF it's an absolute auction you could win it for less without the shill, but you are fighting the hypothetical.

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

On the particular card in question, it wouldn't have made a difference because the other bids were much higher than the shills. But how many other cards has this happened with from this particular consignor (pank21) where his "hidden reserves" drove the price up unnecessarily?

I question the other 2 bidders(with a very high bid % already) that started bidding it up. It just looks fishy to me to have a consigner shilling(which rick may have/haven't known about) then 2 more guys supposedly battling it out with very high bid % up to a very extreme # for a card.