This is the problem with grading...

[CMIZ5290]

Bcauley, you might be the biggest idiot of them all.... By the way, do you have a life??????????

[BCauley]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

Bcauley, you might be the biggest idiot of them all.... By the way, do you have a life??????????

Dude, seriously? I started reading the thread and got to that post (which I think was one of the first), saw the thing about Dateline, and figured I'd actually have fun with it.

Really, if you're THAT spun up about this, you should probably take a step back, go turn on the news, and see that there are far more important things going on in the world. Either that, or just lighten up.

Now, back to reading pages 2 through however long this thing is.

[calvindog]

Fellas, circumstantial evidence can be "proof." And it's very powerful evidence in court. We don't require CSI-level "proof" to conclude a fraud is afoot. In addition, short of a Perry Mason-type confession on Net 54, circumstantial evidence is usually as good as you'll find in these situations.

[BCauley]

Well, after scanning through the thread, it looks fishy to me. BUT, that's all I can really pull from it. I figure a card's grade can be different, though hopefully in the same neighborhood, any day of the week. It is after all, human beings doing the grading and we all know that we are not perfect. However, I think it's pretty obvious that there are side deals that go on all the time in many facets of work and life and I wouldn't expect card grading to be immune to this aspect.

This particular situation though just doesn't sit well with me, though that's probably mostly due to my cynical nature.

[smtjoy]

Kevin I have a question for you, have you ever consigned any items to Probstein123 or any other ebay consignment sellers?

[RGold]

Poof

[texmrsport]

The Bauer card listed in post 47 and Gibson card in post 52 are no longer available for sale. It reads Transaction blocked. Interesting!

[Kenny Cole]

Folks almost universally pan Ken Goldin based on stuff that occurred over a decade ago, when he allegedly screwed others. Maybe I skipped over it, but I don't recall one person saying that they personally got taken. Not saying that the widespread disgust isn't warranted -- I share it -- but I am setting a timeline.

Then I read this thread about a current event. Amazingly (at least to me), some folks volunteer that they are OK with being the victims of fraud so long as they aren't defrauded beyond what they were willing to pay initially. Being the victim of attempted fraud is just fine because they didn't get hit this time. That has to be the craziest sh*t I've heard in a while.

If you paid $600K for a house that you could have gotten for $300K without the mysterious (and non-existent) bidder who cost you the extra cash, is that OK because $600K was your budget? If the answer is yes, then you either have more money than sense or are simply an idiot. The same is true for being shilled on a card. And, shilling hurts people other than the idiots who think its OK, because it makes the cheaters feel enabled. Then they try to do it again, which is detrimental to those of us who actually care about whether or not we've been screwed.

[T206Collector]

The $600/$300K house example is a good one to work with. What if the shill in that example was legitimate, does that mean your house is still worth $600K? It only retains that value if the runner up is still in the market at that price.

To the extent shilling messes up the market price of an asset, then I see a real concern engaging in an auction in that market. I would certainly be reluctant to bid in auctions where I depend on the value of an item not being the result of a potential shill. But I will gladly pay $1,000+ more than the next highest bidder on a signed T206 that I don't already own. In that case, market value is wholly irrelevant to me.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Kenny Cole

Folks almost universally pan Ken Goldin based on stuff that occurred over a decade ago, when he allegedly screwed others. Maybe I skipped over it, but I don't recall one person saying that they personally got taken. Not saying that the widespread disgust isn't warranted -- I share it -- but I am setting a timeline.

Then I read this thread about a current event. Amazingly (at least to me), some folks volunteer that they are OK with being the victims of fraud so long as they aren't defrauded beyond what they were willing to pay initially. Being the victim of attempted fraud is just fine because they didn't get hit this time. That has to be the craziest sh*t I've heard in a while.

If you paid $600K for a house that you could have gotten for $300K without the mysterious (and non-existent) bidder who cost you the extra cash, is that OK because $600K was your budget? If the answer is yes, then you either have more money than sense or are simply an idiot. The same is true for being shilled on a card. And, shilling hurts people other than the idiots who think its OK, because it makes the cheaters feel enabled. Then they try to do it again, which is detrimental to those of us who actually care about whether or not we've been screwed.

Difficult to prevent fraud when people don't have a problem being defrauded.

[Bigdaddy]

I did not know you could shill a Shell, Sam I am.

Seriously, there are two distinct, shady actions going on here. The first is shilling. I believe most folks on here think it is wrong in any case, though a small number believe that it is OK, at least in some circumstances. Fine, we can agree to disagree, though most auction sites disallow this practice because it undermines their creditability.

The second is the significant bumping of a grade by PSA, which underscores the subjectivity (at best) or favoritism to certain submitters (at worst) of the whole grading business. While this may provide short term profits for the sellers, surely the more widespread and known this practice becomes, the less creditability that the graders will retain. If a TPG can bump the same card up two grades and increase it's 'value' (and I use the term lightly) that much, is it really different than a fraudelent autograph authenticator taking a forged Mantle 8x10 (that is worth no more than the cost of the photo, say $5) and authenticating it, thereby increasing it's value 500x? The problem here lies strictly with the TPG, not the folks resubmitting the cards. They are only playing the system as it is set up, much like all of us who take advantage of tax breaks that have been allowed by the gov't.

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Originally Posted by Bigdaddy

I did not know you could shill a Shell, Sam I am.

Not bad! How about:

"Sally sells shilled Shells by the seashore."

Now say that three times!