This is the problem with grading...

[DJR]

.

[Matthew H]

Originally Posted by DJR

To make this sordid tale even spicier, pank21 is actually an SGC employee / rep...WTF!

http://www.sgccard.com/appearances.htm

Even SGC employees choose PSA. Haha

This is all very terrible. I'm glad I don't collect high grade crap.

Originally Posted by Matthew H

Even SGC employees choose PSA.

It's because he knows SGC would have graded it accurately.

As far as Probstein relisting cards after sales. I have seen this done several times with 205's. I have not bought from him in yrs because I thought I was shilled up on some high grade AB's a few yrs back. 3 of which I lost last second and was relisted with a BIN 2 weeks later at about 20% higher than closing bid which was already high enough for the cards. I got crazy on bidding but still got out bid on them This thread kinda confirms that there is some awkward bidding going on. Then again he gets great prices for his cards so the buyer might have consigned the cards back to get a quick flip or try anyways.

[howard38]

/

[barrysloate]

Let's suppose for a minute that the Art Shell is a 10, which it isn't, but let's just say that it is. What does that tell you about the grader who gave it an 8? What is his skill level if he can't get within two grades of the card's actual condition? That doesn't say much for the grader's ability, whatever its actual grade is, if he's that far off in either direction. Aren't they supposed to bring a little more accuracy than that to the table?

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Let's suppose for a minute that the Art Shell is a 10, which it isn't, but let's just say that it is. What does that tell you about the grader who gave it an 8? What is his skill level if he can't get within two grades of the card's actual condition? That doesn't say much for the grader's ability, whatever its actual grade is, if he's that far off in either direction. Aren't they supposed to bring a little more accuracy than that to the table?

Barry,

I'm a mechanical engineer by profession. When we design parts, the drawings call out dimensions with tolerance limits. Perhaps PSA should do the same. "This Art Shell card is a PSA 8, +2, -0".

[barrysloate]

I know Dan. I can see that an 8 and an 8.5 could be interchangeable, they are really just a hairline apart. But changing the 8 to a 10 made the card increase in value by 6700%. Don't you think the graders need to be a whole lot more responsible in their assessments?

[Matthew H]

Originally Posted by Pup6913

It's because he knows SGC would have graded it accurately.

I was kidding Andrew. I know SGC would have done a better job. Iv'e found the best grader in the world for me,,, thats myself.

If I ever decide to sell a worthless card for a bunch of money I'll call Ken Goldin I mean PSA. Seems like the latter is perfectly acceptable. Of corse I don't know anyone over there so I probably wouldn't get the grade I want.

I see a lot of great arguments on PSAs behalf, so I'm convinced, nothing wrong there :roll eyes: So does anyone want to talk about the shilling? Or does that get a pass?

[SMPEP]

... when your shill bidding at $250 and the card sells at $3,150 ... I can't get too worked up. Yeah, you shill bid, but your bid was essentially irrelevant because two people went WAY over the top of you.

When you shill for $250, and the card sells for $251 ... that's a different story.

Cheers,
Patrick

[smtjoy]

So what about the $475 shill on the $611 Havlicek? You ok with that too?

http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.d...m=120964176990


Also might be nothing but the winner of the Havlicek with their 595 Bids this month of which 456 are with only Probstein123 or 79%, humm yea that looks good too.

[Matthew H]

Originally Posted by SMPEP

... when your shill bidding at $250 and the card sells at $3,150 ... I can't get too worked up. Yeah, you shill bid, but your bid was essentially irrelevant because two people went WAY over the top of you.

When you shill for $250, and the card sells for $251 ... that's a different story.

Cheers,
Patrick

Thanks Patrick, I didn't know this kind of shilling was acceptible. I learn something new everyday...

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Matthew H

Thanks Patrick, I didn't know this kind of shilling was acceptible. I learn something new everyday...

Yes, when it's a low bid like that it's not really shilling. It's called a "safety bid."

[mark evans]

Grading is inherently subjective, no way around that. Having said that, though, it is my view that TPG is, on balance, of benefit to the hobby largely because it facilitates long-distance including internet transactions.

The problem I see relates to the enormous differences in value ascribed to high grades of even modern day commons. Even assuming no ethical problems in the grading process, the subjective nature of grading should over time reduce these disparities in my view, perhaps risking the investment of those collecting the highest-graded cards.

Originally Posted by SMPEP

... when your shill bidding at $250 and the card sells at $3,150 ... I can't get too worked up. Yeah, you shill bid, but your bid was essentially irrelevant because two people went WAY over the top of you.

When you shill for $250, and the card sells for $251 ... that's a different story.

Cheers,
Patrick

Pat look at the bid % of the 3 bidders over the $250 mark. 2 of them are way high IMO and the 3rd is the winner. Probably legit but still ripped off

[eb548]

the guy practically sells half the vintage cards on ebay. If you dont have a high bid % with him, you probably dont like/ are not bidding on vintage cards. Also, why does probstein have to police ebay policy? Probstein pays ebay fees to do this stuff. Regardless of what is going on behind the scenes (which i have no clue but I'll give Probstein benefit of doubt because of the guy I know him to be), blame ebay not him. He cant control this stuff.. he doesnt have the administrative ebay software.. Jeeeeeez

+1 Kevin Mize post

[SMPEP]

I know my opinions don't match the majority of the board's ... but I honestly don't care if a seller shill bids me.

I as a buyer want the item and have set the price I will pay. I view my bid as a Buy-it-Now price. In other words, if the seller had this item with a Buy-it-Now price that was equal to my bid ... I would buy it immediately. If it was more, I wouldn't.

So if I get an item at a price less than my max bid ... good for me. Lucky day.

If I get an item for my max price ... cool. I got the item I wanted, and paid the amount I was willing to pay. (and not a penny more.)

If someone shill bids me up to my max price ... well, that kind of sucks (because I would have been lucky and gotten a bargain), but at the end of the day I still get the item I wanted and for a price I was wiling to pay. And since I set the price, I always get the item for a price I like.

So, I understand people get upset that they don't get the bargain they hoped for (and agree it is not right for seller's to do this) ... but I'd rather get shilled and get the item for my price, than not get the item.

And everyone on here has my permission to bid me up to my maximum price. I won't complain! (If you outbid me and get the item I want however ......)

Cheers,
Patrick

[howard38]

z

[T206Collector]

I do think that shill bidding can artificially inflate the market for things that are sold in non-shilled markets, which can be problematic when trying to assess the value of something.

[brob28]

Originally Posted by SMPEP

... when your shill bidding at $250 and the card sells at $3,150 ... I can't get too worked up. Yeah, you shill bid, but your bid was essentially irrelevant because two people went WAY over the top of you.

When you shill for $250, and the card sells for $251 ... that's a different story.

Cheers,
Patrick

He was all set to shill, but soon after starting realized two fools with registry dreams were going to take care of that for him!

[Matthew H]

Originally Posted by brob28

He was all set to shill, but soon after starting realized two fools with registry dreams were going to take care of that for him!

500% profit was enough for him, he didn't wanna be greedy.

[RobertGT]

I agree there is no way in hell that card is a 10.