This is the problem with grading...

[sbfinley]

Grading is and will always be subjective, the list of variables is too high. Also "unethical" is not the word I would use here. Probstein says (and I believe him) that the original buyer re-submitted, got the bump, and then cosigned the cards again. Nothing wrong with that and people resubmit for bumps all the time with every major grading company. I am part of a hobby where someone will pay $3k for an Art Shell card, if I didn't expect things like this to happen I would be kidding myself.

[vintagetoppsguy]

The same "buyer" won both the Shell and Havlicek cards. Look at the bid history. Come on guys, you ignore the facts here.

[T206DK]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

The same "buyer" won both the Shell and Havlicek cards. Look at the bid history. Come on guys, you ignore the facts here.

I doubt probsteins story...ALOT !!

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Both the Shell and the Havlicek were graded correctly the first time and blatantly overgraded the second time - in my opinion. If it only happened once I could maybe see this as another error like the Black Swamp PSA 10 Wagner. But twice by the same seller recently and a third time 14 months ago as shown below?

http://forums.collectors.com/message...67&STARTPAGE=1

What a disgrace! This warrants a public explanation by the management at PSA.

And the PSAphiles on the CU Board wonder why the majority of the people here scoffed at that those recent record prices for the PSA 10 HOF rookie cards from the 1950s.

[Touch'EmAll]

If you are not PSA set registry concerned, the smart collector would never pay the HUGE premium for a PSA 10 grade.

I have had a few 10's in my time, and I was mostly disappointed about some aspect of the card - sold them fast.

A nicely centered PSA 8 with good color/focus/gloss and solid corners is as good as it gets to the naked eye.

It just sucks that corruption has leaked to grading companies (PSA in particular) - just as corruption has leaked into most facets of life.

A dealer friend I once knew at the dawning of the graded age once told me a PSA 10 is pure La La Land.

Go get 'em y'all PSA set registry folks. Not for me.

[tiger8mush]

buy the card, not the holder, and this won't happen to you

edited to add: I do agree that grading needs to stick to more objective guidelines so that they are more consistent with grading so that a $50 card doesn't suddenly become a $3k card because the grader that day decided to bump a card two gades. But did the buyer purchase the card because he wanted the card inside, or cuz he wanted the perfect PSA 10 on the flip? I think we know the answer ...

[chaddurbin]

this is the problem with postwar collecting, 8s turning into 10s w/o doing any work. with prewar you'd at least need an exacto knife or some chemical agent to turn a VG card into EX. at least make PSA earn their money postwar collectors...until then stay in the kiddie pool.

talking about goldin and mastro, ebay consignment is also a big scam going today. anonymous consignments, safety biddings, hidden reserves, bid retractions, shillings, artificially pumping up prices, cards that were supposedly sold being relisted the next week. unregulated in the ebay clustermess and a free for all.

[cmcclelland]

I think both of those cards were undergraded by PSA the first time. The Art Shell is a MINT 9 any day of the week and twice on Sunday. I don't know about a 10, but 10's from PSA have always seemed like kind of a joke to me anyway. With the spots on the back, probably should not have gotten a 10. But absolutely no way is it an 8. Same thing with the Havlicek - it's an easy 8, and I have no problem with the 8.5.

I have submitted a lot of cards to PSA in my day, and if anything, I have always felt that they are much more likely to undergrade than overgrade. I don't like PSA any more than most on this board, but to me it's not so much an issue of overgrading as it is undergrading. Maybe it's true that some of their big customers get better grades - I don't know. But, if I were grading these two cards, I would have given the Shell a 9 and the Havlicek an 8 based on how they look in the scans.

I agree that paying thousands (or even hundreds) for a 1973 Art Shell card in any grade is insanity. Unfortunately, that is what this hobby has become for better or worse.

I guess the other side of that issue is that back in the days before grading, people would pay too much for a VG/EX card that some old time dealer said was NM, or an EX/MT card that some guy said was MINT, etc. At least the third party grading has eliminated a lot of that type of nonsense which was basically standard practice back in the day. Overall, I think that 80-90% of the graded material from PSA and SGC is pretty fairly graded and sells for a fair price.

[SMPEP]

Guess I still don't get it.

You want to spend $3k on a 1952 Mantle. Okay. The population of the card is pretty well known. There aren't too many floating around that are ungraded (and you're not buying those any ways because of authenticity questions). So you know this is pretty much the market rate barring something very unusual happening.

But a PSA 10 1973 Art Shell? Heck I have a NM set. Never bothered to grade a single card. Are mine 8s, 9s, 10s? I have no clue but given how many were printed, how many are sitting ungraded in boxes like mine, and how few have ever been graded, it's a very safe assumption there are many more 10s out there.

So why would you spend that much money on a card that could lose half (or more?) of its value if just 3 more 10s turn up out of the tens of thousands that were printed?

Guess I should go see if my Shell is a 10. Even if it's not, I can submitted with a picture of this 10 and make them justify giving me a lower grade.

And I'll happily sell it for $2,500 if the underbidder wants a "bargain."

Cheers,
Patrick

[wazoo]

I believe we can all agree on this. Money and greed is causing some sellers and some TPG's to pollute our hobby that we know and love.

[honus94566]

I don't see any problem with what went down on ebay. Someone got the card re-graded, and someone was dumb enough to pay 3K+ for a 73 art shell.

Sure, PSA shouldn't have graded that card a 10. But still... as far as I see it, this is the buyer's problem. Gotta be smarter than that.

I don't think there is anything unethical or dishonest about probstein re-auctioning the card after it was regraded.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by honus94566

I don't see any problem with what went down on ebay. Someone got the card re-graded, and someone was dumb enough to pay 3K+ for a 73 art shell.

You're not looking at the big picture. The cards never exchanged hands. Look at the time frame. It doesn't add up. The 'buyer" didn't have time to pay for the purchase, wait for it to be delivered, crack and re-submit the card and send it back to Probstein for consignment.

Also, look at the bid history for each card. The same "buyer" won both the Shell and Havlicek cards. Are you telling me that "buyer" was lucky enough to get significant bumps on both cards? Heck, I should have that buyer re-submit some of mine.

Be reasonable.

Edited to add: I don't believe for a minute the cards ever exchanged hands. But, even if they did, you're missing the part where the "buyer" (Pang21) bid on his own auction when he consigned it back to Probstein. Isn't that shilling? And you don't have a problem with that? Look at the bid history. I think some of you guys are just making random comments w/o looking at everything.

[sbfinley]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

You're not looking at the big picture. The cards never exchanged hands. Look at the time frame. It doesn't add up. The 'buyer" didn't have time to pay for the purchase, wait for it to be delivered, crack and re-submit the card and send it back to Probstein for consignment.

Also, look at the bid history for each card. The same "buyer" won both the Shell and Havlicek cards. Are you telling me that "buyer" was lucky enough to get significant bumps on both cards? Heck, I should have that buyer re-submit some of mine.

Be reasonable.

It was noted on the CU board that the "buyer" was a noted dealer from the same area as Probstein and probably was able to pick his winnings up in person. Much in the same manner he was allowed to view the lots in person. So the buyer won cards from a local seller a week and a half before the National which also happened to be close and feature on site grading. Yes, the time frame seems very tight, but it is not obviously impossible nor blatantly fraudulent. There is also no record of how many cards the "buyer" purchased and resubmitted without the bump.


Edit: Yes the buyer seems to have shilled his auctions. But as long as eBay censors the bid history that is going to happen.

[t206hound]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

You're not looking at the big picture. The cards never exchanged hands. Look at the time frame. It doesn't add up. The 'buyer" didn't have time to pay for the purchase, wait for it to be delivered, crack and re-submit the card and send it back to Probstein for consignment.

The card was likely regraded at the National and then consigned back to Probstein who was set up there.

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Edited to add: I don't believe for a minute the cards ever exchanged hands. But, even if they did, you're missing the part where the "buyer" (Pang21) bid on his own auction when he consigned it back to Probstein. Isn't that shilling? And you don't have a problem with that? Look at the bid history. I think some of you guys are just making random comments w/o looking at everything.

You nailed him on this one. The winner of the "8" bid $250 on the "10":
http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.d...m=110909530402

http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.d...m=140819406508

[Ronnie73]

First let me say that i've bid on and won many auctions from Rick and never once felt like any funny business was going on. As far as the turnaround times, if the winner is at a show that Ricks at and PSA is there too, then the trunaround is possible. Only Rick could confirm this but i'm sure he owes some sort of privacy to his buyers and consigners. If the buyer has a good track record for upgrades, then they can afford to travel the country and do this sort of thing full time. One important thing to remember, nobody is forcing the final buyer to pay crazy money for a PSA 10 grade except their need of that 10 on the label. I agree that some cards don't deserve the upgrade but there are others that do. Plain and simple, buy the card and not the holder. Me personally, I'm more than happy with a nicely centered PSA 8 any day over a 10.

[toledo_mudhen]

[QUOTE=honus94566;1026687]I don't see any problem with what went down on ebay. Someone got the card re-graded, and someone was dumb enough to pay 3K+ for a 73 art shell.

No way that I am going to believe simply that "Someone got the card regraded". This is total BS and you wont convince me that there wasn't a "payoff" in there somewhere...............

Which leads to my final point - I buy PSA slabs to resell - I buy SGC slabs to keep.............

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by honus94566

No way that I am going to believe simply that "Someone got the card regraded". This is total BS and you wont convince me that there wasn't a "payoff" in there somewhere...............

You mean PSA employees are not honest?? OMG I never knew.

[biggsdaddycool]

Originally Posted by SMPEP

Guess I still don't get it.

But a PSA 10 1973 Art Shell? Heck I have a NM set. Never bothered to grade a single card. Are mine 8s, 9s, 10s? I have no clue but given how many were printed, how many are sitting ungraded in boxes like mine, and how few have ever been graded, it's a very safe assumption there are many more 10s out there.

Cheers,
Patrick

this is my point, exactly. I know of many ungraded, high end vintage cards that are sitting in safe deposit boxes. Nationwide? There are tons of "undiscovered" cards that are not graded, and not included in any population report anywhere. I would be very wary about any population report as being truly accurate. With all of the cracks and resubmittals to different companies, and all the undiscovered, non-publicized vintage out there?? Be wary.

[Deertick]

Not for nothing, but I'd give that Bauer a 9 all day long.....