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[jefferyepayne]

Looking at a catalog isn't going to solve anything for me (and hopefully a lot of others). This discussion is about ethics, and pretty pictures in a catalog don't tell you anything about the ethics of the people involved.

It's time for collectors in this hobby to take a stand and STOP BIDDING on auctions by those you believe are unethical. Until that happens, nothing will change. It frosts me when someone says they will still bid on an item if they need it even if they believe the individuals involved are unethical. Have some principles, people. It's the only way this will ever change.

jeff

Originally Posted by scgaynor

I think that the thing to do is revisit this thread in October when people have a catalog in their hands and reserve judgement until that time. I am confident that after the catalog comes out and the auction takes place, that opinions will begin to change.

Scott

[Ladder7]

Well put Jeff. The only way to clean this stinkin' house.

Even those 'it'll have to be a really great item to get me to bid' guys, riding the fence perpetuate the issue.

Online, the shyster's found religion... In reality;


Have a terrific day,
Steve F

[Peter_Spaeth]

I think the thread comes down to the larger question, do we forgive people their past sins, or do we not.

For some of us, past sins are irrelevant, as long as we can get the items we want. Indeed, for these folks, ONGOING sins may not matter. Stuff trumps all. Or perhaps a less harsh assessment is that we feel that as individuals we won't make any difference anyhow, so we might as well get the items we want.

For others, whether to forgive past sins depends on the attitude of the sinner. I think most people (except maybe Wonka LOL) are willing to forgive or at least give a second chance to sinners who show genuine remorse. As I see it, what got Ken into trouble here was not his SAH days per se, but his apparent lack of genuine remorse. Perhaps he just chose his words poorly, but in a format like this all we have to go on are people's words.

And I agree that the catalog really isn't the issue.

[wolf441]

Just my humble opinion, but I do believe in second chances and will reserve judgement for the time being. People can and do change all the time. I would cite Michael Milken as a great example. He was disgraced during the junk bond scandal in the late 1980's, served his prison sentence and became a leading advocate for cancer research whose philanthropic endeavors have raised hundreds of millions for cancer research.

[jefferyepayne]

Originally Posted by wolf441

Just my humble opinion, but I do believe in second chances and will reserve judgement for the time being. People can and do change all the time. I would cite Michael Milken as a great example. He was disgraced during the junk bond scandal in the late 1980's, served his prison sentence and became a leading advocate for cancer research whose philanthropic endeavors have raised hundreds of millions for cancer research.

I most definitely believe in second chances too. I give them to people all of the time. However, you need to EARN your second chances. Until someone is sincere and honest and shows signs of truly changing, buyer beware. I've found that someone that can't (or won't) admit they made a mistake and apologize for it instead of giving lame excuses as to why "things were different then", has not yet earned this second chance. Con men thrive on those who blindly give a second chance. Hold people accountable for their actions if you want change.

Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me ...

jeff

[wolf441]

Point taken Jeff,

I'm not advocating blindly giving a second chance. I'm just interested to see how things play out. Just from being a member of Net54 for a very short period of time, I don't believe that the crowd here will be taken in by a less than 100% honest auction house. And seeing Scott Gaynor involved gives me hope as well.

Best wishes,

Steve

[jefferyepayne]

I wish you were right. In other threads on Net54, people have said they will participate in any auctions that has the cards they need, irrespective of the ethics or past behavior of the auction house / owner. Unfortunately it appears that very few are willing to do what's right if it results in even a small amount of personal loss.

The con men are laughing all the way to the bank when this attitude prevails and anyone in the hobby with a positive brand needs to be careful associating themselves with those of questionable ethics. In business, your brand is partially determined by who you associate with...

jeff

Originally Posted by wolf441

Point taken Jeff,

I'm not advocating blindly giving a second chance. I'm just interested to see how things play out. Just from being a member of Net54 for a very short period of time, I don't believe that the crowd here will be taken in by a less than 100% honest auction house. And seeing Scott Gaynor involved gives me hope as well.

Best wishes,

Steve

[Matthew H]

We should start a list of ethical auction houses, so we know where to bid.

[Big Ben]

Originally Posted by jefferyepayne

Looking at a catalog isn't going to solve anything for me (and hopefully a lot of others). This discussion is about ethics, and pretty pictures in a catalog don't tell you anything about the ethics of the people involved.

It's time for collectors in this hobby to take a stand and STOP BIDDING on auctions by those you believe are unethical. Until that happens, nothing will change. It frosts me when someone says they will still bid on an item if they need it even if they believe the individuals involved are unethical. Have some principles, people. It's the only way this will ever change.

jeff

I very much agree with your post. I never understood why people continued to bid on those types of auctions.