new member introduction

[barrysloate]

delete

[calvindog]

Less potty mouth, more work will improve your disposition.

[hammer]

If you are all happy with Hucksters in this hobby do not complain if you get burned by them. A Carnival atmosphere is not what I was hopeing this hobby would turn out to be. With that said when you sweep up the floor and put the dirt under the rug pretty soon you will have to throw it out after so much dirt.

[barrysloate]

delete

[calvindog]

Barry, I didn't jump on you at all on this thread -- until you accused me of purposely 'ragging' on you after I made a valid point. You're thin-skinned. As for how you conduct your life, I don't give a damn. I'm surely paying for it but I still don't give a damn. Have a good day doing...nothing.

[travrosty]

it was more than puffery, the cat was already out of the bag that the new stuff was way overproduced and collectors were leaving the market, and new collectors werent coming in and that the market was way oversaturated.


The people who didnt know this - the casual non-collector or weekend investor, got taken in.

The question that people need to ask is "did ken know it?", yes i believe he did, and did he sell it anyway pumping it up as the investment of the century.
"yes"

[barrysloate]

Calvindog is now on my ignore list. I no longer have to read his posts. Didn't have much worthwhile to say at that.

[Peter_Spaeth]

People are forgiving of people who admit their mistakes. If Ken had come on and said, yes, I was wrong, I really regret what I did back then, I accept responsibility and I have changed, I think most of us would accept that.

But his initial posts hyping his new venture didn't say anything at all about past issues (did he think people would not remember SAH?), and when he realized he had to address it, his initial comment was to use the Clintonesque passive voice: "That's how it was done."

What's more, his pitch for why we should trust him was that he realizes he is under scrutiny and couldn't get away with anything, and values his life too much to try. Is that supposed to instill confidence?

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Calvindog is now on my ignore list. I know longer have to read his posts. Didn't have much worthwhile to say at that.

Enjoy your retirement or whatever it is.

[teetwoohsix]

Originally Posted by glynparson

It was around 1999-2000. I received a phone call from a woman in the Lebanon PA area. Her husband has just passed away from cancer and all he left her was this very valuable baseball card collection. When I get to the house, I brought my father with me to help go through it, she takes us to the basement to see the collection. When I get there I am horrified. It is all very beat up ugly off centered new cards all in 10 holders. The woman then explains to us how her husband found out he was dying of cancer, he didn't tell anyone at first. they had little money and No life insurance. They did have good credit, and he eventually told his wife he was dying of cancer but he had provided for her and their daughter. He got several credit cards and maxed them out buying that overhyped crap off of TV from Mr Goldin and Solomon Cramer. It was so hard explaining to this woman that her sick desperate husband, who was trying to give his family a future, had actually wasted tens of thousands of dollars they did not have. The woman was crying hysterically she was telling us how she would lose her home because she needed money from these cards. He had spent 20000+ and I would not have given her $2000 for it all and I would have paid her more than it was worth to try and help her. So no, he will not get a second chance from me, I don't care if he gets every white whale on my want list. I hope is has turned a new leaf but until past since are acknowledge a little more honestly and openly, and attempted to be rectified when possible, I will avoid Goldin auctions and be openly critical of his past, and I also wish they would not be an advertiser and please don't send me any email blasts about upcoming auctions as I don't care.

Edit: Jeff if you would see some of the garbage they were calling gem mint on modern stuff it seems a little beyond puffery in my opinion.

This is a horrible story, it made me sad to read it.

Did anyone ever get the real T206 Wagner (that was hyped in the video)?

Sincerely, Clayton

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

People are forgiving of people who admit their mistakes. If Ken had come on and said, yes, I was wrong, I really regret what I did back then, I accept responsibility and I have changed, I think most of us would accept that.

But his initial posts hyping his new venture didn't say anything at all about past issues (did he think people would not remember SAH?), and when he realized he had to address it, his initial comment was to use the Clintonesque passive voice: "That's how it was done."

What's more, his pitch for why we should trust him was that he realizes he is under scrutiny and couldn't get away with anything, and values his life too much to try. Is that supposed to instill confidence?

Peter, that's all fair. But you forget the hobby we're in.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by glynparson

Edit: Jeff if you would see some of the garbage they were calling gem mint on modern stuff it seems a little beyond puffery in my opinion.

Glyn, I can't disagree with that. Kind of hard to rationalize this in any other way. I think I'm just so used to seeing so much fraud in the hobby that boorish selling and borderline behavior just needs to get to the back of the line of problems, unfortunately. But there's no good excuse for it, you're right.

[HRBAKER]

It all comes down to whether he can get quality consignments in an already crowded field. If he can history has shown that in this hobby his past will have little bearing on whether people will bid.

[Matthew H]

Over-hyped and puffery? You mean like high grade commons in TPG holders? Or are you referring to values based on shilled or house bid auctions?

I think Jeff is 100% correct here. You've got people slinging mud from every angle. Go look at the first threads on the mastro fiasco. Pretty much everyone but jeff was blaming the reporter who broke the story.

I know, the stories of grandma's buying from ken are really sad. My dad bought some stuff for me... All very very sad.

What about the fact that the much hobby is over hyped? Caused by a mixture of TPG and Auction shilling?

Hasn't everyone read the interview where Dick Towel stated that he's worked on 15,000-18,000 cards? Many Many Many Mantle rookies? He also said that there are many other people who are good at certain aspects of what he does: Removing stains, removing wrinkles or creases for $30 per card!!?

All this info out there and you still have people discussing that PSA 5 with a wrinkle... Don't worry, that wrinkle will be gone over time.

But forget all that. Lets make sure we don't bid on auctions by those hilarious guys who used to sell that crap on tv.

[tinkereversandme]

I agree with Wonka ticket throughout. I remember watching the hocking of products that were far less superior to all the hype with promises of wealth and furture investment while all the while he must have known that every order processed that the customer was being duped. Obnoxious proclamations and hype that made me sick to my stomach. I will not be supporting this new venture but I'm sure many will so what does it matter what one man thinks.

Regards,

Larry

[bijoem]

I'm not with you on this point.

I don't think people's willingness to pay is a good measure of something's worth (considering the willingness is guided by misleading sales tactics or puffery as you call it).

If I sell you fool's gold and tell you it is real gold.... and you and enough people buy it.... does that mean fool's gold value is the same as real gold?

Originally Posted by calvindog

Why were they worth pennies? If people were paying $100 for the cards than it seems like they were worth $100 at the time. If he was shill bidding or altering the cards to get them into higher graded holders your argument would have more merit. We have enough garbage running auction houses that perhaps before we go after the guys who simply engage in massive puffery we should focus on the guys who break federal and state laws while running their auctions. By the way, I'm not certain the Shamwow is worth $19.99 either -- but if someone is willing to pay for it because the guy hawking them is persuasive then so be it.

Oh and a disclaimer: I don't know anyone associated with Goldin Auctions, I've never consigned with him, partnered with him, or given him cards and watched with delight as he shill bid the cards through the stratosphere.

[cmcclelland]

Delete

[botn]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Why were they worth pennies? If people were paying $100 for the cards than it seems like they were worth $100 at the time. If he was shill bidding or altering the cards to get them into higher graded holders your argument would have more merit. We have enough garbage running auction houses that perhaps before we go after the guys who simply engage in massive puffery we should focus on the guys who break federal and state laws while running their auctions. By the way, I'm not certain the Shamwow is worth $19.99 either -- but if someone is willing to pay for it because the guy hawking them is persuasive then so be it.

Oh and a disclaimer: I don't know anyone associated with Goldin Auctions, I've never consigned with him, partnered with him, or given him cards and watched with delight as he shill bid the cards through the stratosphere.

Sorry I'm late but I am confused, Jeff. For 2 days you have telling me privately something completely different. Did Kenny just give pay you a retainer or has my reading comprehension dropped...even more? I have never seen a guy on all 3 sides of a fence before. You are a wizard!!!!

i am deleting the message...

i am deleting the message

[glchen]

First, the disclaimer, as in my last post on this thread, I have sold cards to Ken before, so I am not a completely unbiased poster. I have always felt that our dealings were very fair and professional. However, take this and my opinions on this as it is.

That story from Glyn is pretty bad. I'm not saying that I'm unsympathetic to the man and his wife. It's a horrible story. You don't wish that on anybody. However, did Ken know that the man was dying of cancer and was spending his life savings on cards when this was going down? I assume he did not. He was just a face on TV, doing his job of trying to sell cards. A lot of dealers sell over-priced cards. It could be on TV (like Ken did), it could be at card shows like the National, and it could be on ebay with overpriced BINs. If the same person spent his money on seriously over-priced BIN's from Levi and 707 after watching news on his TV about the Black Swamp find, would it be Levi's fault on what happened to his family? Some people are justifiable shocked at Levi's high prices, but others counter that he is a nice guy and ships quickly with good service. OKAY...

The argument will be that Levi did not hype his cards like Ken did or promise huge returns. I think Ken already addressed some of this in his earlier 4 posts, which basically came down to this is how Shop At Home operates for all of the things they sell. However, the point I want to bring up here is that you have to be knowledgeable about this hobby if you buy anything of considerable worth. This is why this forum has been so great, because there are a lot of people on this board who are very knowledgeable with many, many years in the hobby and are very willing to dispense it. You have to have an idea of what you are doing, or else there is a very good chance that you are going to get creamed. Knowledge is absolutely vital in this hobby whether it is which TPG's are reputable, how to tell if a raw card is authentic, use VCP and past sales for your pricing data rather than SMR or Beckett, and so forth. Again for some people, this is only a hobby and they do not care what their returns are or if they get any money back at all. However, if you have or are planning to put any significant sums of money into this hobby, you better try to learn as much as possible.

Being knowledgeable brings me up to another story about jewelry, which is also often sold on TV. My mother-in-law is an avid fan of the jewelry channel to my chagrin. This brings me to a story about buying diamonds. When I was looking into purchasing an engagement ring for my soon-to-be wife, I really researched it. I bought a book on how to buy diamonds, and read many, many articles with helpful advice about it on the internet. Therefore, when I finally purchased the ring, I felt that I really knew what I was doing and bought the best ring and diamond for the price I could afford. This is what knowledge can give you. When my mother-in-law showed me a small diamond ring (~1 carat) that she purchased, I was shocked at the price that she spent on such a poor quality diamond. The color, clarity, and cut were all bad, and the dealer smoked her because she was so focused on the size of the diamond for the price. You can't really say it all the dealer's fault. When you walk into a jewelry store at your mall, this is what you see every day. People paying too much for poor quality diamonds.

People just need to use their own knowledge and their own judgment on things that they buy. I personally think some of the prices that people paid for the Dimtiri Young PSA 10's are absolutely nuts. Did those people get duped? Did the people who bought the hype of the Strasburg and Jeremy Lin cards get duped? Buying during the 80s-90s bubble? Insert cards? As did many others, I got killed buying cards during that 80s-90s bubble and became very disillusioned for a time and dropped out of the hobby. However, who knew these guys were printing so many cards? I guess all of during that era should have known, but were just deceiving ourselves as we were dreaming about our retirement savings already. At some point, you really have to decide for yourself if the card is really worth the price the dealer is selling it for. There was a thread in the Memorabilia section about the crazy prices people were paying for items from Heritage's recent Live auction such as the 1969 Topps Basketball set. However, other posters defended the prices as some people had the means to pay the prices, so that meant the prices were fair. If anyone was investing their life savings, I really hope that they knew what they were doing.

I believed Ken already addressed the card slabbing issue by saying he wasn't involved in that aspect of it. If I'm wrong, please correct me. However, if he had just sold the cards raw, but said they were gem mint like many raw dealers do, would that have made a difference?

Again, it is not like Ken is someone like Brian Dwyer with a "sterling" reputation. He has some work to do, and I think he's admitted this already. Let's just see how his first auction runs and go from there. Besides having stuff I want, the biggest thing that I want from an auction house is no shilling, including house bids or safety bids. That is, I want real auctions where the true market price of the item is set. I would like to see reasonable shipping charges and that my winnings are shipped fairly quickly after payment. Accepting paypal or credit cards would be very nice also, along with reasonable buyer's fee. I would also want reasonable recourse if the item when delivered did not match the auction description. Good luck, Ken.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by botn

Sorry I'm late but I am confused, Jeff. For 2 days you have telling me privately something completely different. Did Kenny just give pay you a retainer or has my reading comprehension dropped...even more? I have never seen a guy on all 3 sides of a fence before. You are a wizard!!!!

That's not true at all. I made it very clear that I think the videos, the hawking of the crap was bad -- and I told you that your criticism was welcomed and valid. I'm just disappointed in the difference in the board reaction to Ken compared with Mastro, Allen, etc., guys who stole from everyone HERE by using fraudulent means which rose to the level of violations of federal criminal law. The response for the past seven years and even following their indictment and the revelation of Bill's apparent cooperation with the Feds has been tepid at best for reasons you personally know: that board members here made money with Mastro as they turned a blind eye to the fraud as their consignments went through the roof. And while Ken deserves the criticism it just strikes me as a bit bizarre that suddenly the pitch forks and torches are out and while his actions are borderline, I don't see them nearly rising to the level of what would be needed to indict him for mail or wire fraud.

[Peter_Spaeth]

--

[Ladder7]

Hey, lay off Barry. He wasn't giving an endorsement.

Incidentally, Im not buying any of his epiphany BS. But, no doubt, there will be a "Show your Goldin winnings" thread... Yep Net54, we'll get this hobby cleaned up yet!

[Peter_Spaeth]

"The argument will be that Levi did not hype his cards like Ken did or promise huge returns. I think Ken already addressed some of this in his earlier 4 posts, which basically came down to this is how Shop At Home operates for all of the things they sell."

The Nuremberg defense applied to baseball cards. Beautiful.

[calvindog]

LOL ok that was a good one. Peter, I wouldn't want you to not get the appropriate kudos for that gold.

But who can forget the days when I'd point out the hilarious price disparities on cards of identical issue and grade of Goodwin sales compared to eBay and every other auction house? $309, $312, $305, $2986, $316 -- and all I'd get back was "Goodwin is a great guy, shut your mouth."

[Peter_Spaeth]

--

[calvindog]

Lol

[Peter_Spaeth]

Perhaps any auction house that engaged in shill bidding should offer in its defense, "That's how it was done." It seems to resonate with some people. We can call it the "Goldin defense."

[calvindog]

Or the defense of "I told you all what the ceiling bids were and allowed you to shill your own auctions -- but I never hit the bid button myself, what do you want from me?"

That's an oldie but a Goodie.

[Buythatcard]

Originally Posted by glchen

First, the disclaimer, as in my last post on this thread, I have sold cards to Ken before, so I am not a completely unbiased poster. I have always felt that our dealings were very fair and professional. However, take this and my opinions on this as it is.

That story from Glyn is pretty bad. I'm not saying that I'm unsympathetic to the man and his wife. It's a horrible story. You don't wish that on anybody. However, did Ken know that the man was dying of cancer and was spending his life savings on cards when this was going down? I assume he did not. He was just a face on TV, doing his job of trying to sell cards. A lot of dealers sell over-priced cards. It could be on TV (like Ken did), it could be at card shows like the National, and it could be on ebay with overpriced BINs. If the same person spent his money on seriously over-priced BIN's from Levi and 707 after watching news on his TV about the Black Swamp find, would it be Levi's fault on what happened to his family? Some people are justifiable shocked at Levi's high prices, but others counter that he is a nice guy and ships quickly with good service. OKAY...

The argument will be that Levi did not hype his cards like Ken did or promise huge returns. I think Ken already addressed some of this in his earlier 4 posts, which basically came down to this is how Shop At Home operates for all of the things they sell. However, the point I want to bring up here is that you have to be knowledgeable about this hobby if you buy anything of considerable worth. This is why this forum has been so great, because there are a lot of people on this board who are very knowledgeable with many, many years in the hobby and are very willing to dispense it. You have to have an idea of what you are doing, or else there is a very good chance that you are going to get creamed. Knowledge is absolutely vital in this hobby whether it is which TPG's are reputable, how to tell if a raw card is authentic, use VCP and past sales for your pricing data rather than SMR or Beckett, and so forth. Again for some people, this is only a hobby and they do not care what their returns are or if they get any money back at all. However, if you have or are planning to put any significant sums of money into this hobby, you better try to learn as much as possible.

Being knowledgeable brings me up to another story about jewelry, which is also often sold on TV. My mother-in-law is an avid fan of the jewelry channel to my chagrin. This brings me to a story about buying diamonds. When I was looking into purchasing an engagement ring for my soon-to-be wife, I really researched it. I bought a book on how to buy diamonds, and read many, many articles with helpful advice about it on the internet. Therefore, when I finally purchased the ring, I felt that I really knew what I was doing and bought the best ring and diamond for the price I could afford. This is what knowledge can give you. When my mother-in-law showed me a small diamond ring (~1 carat) that she purchased, I was shocked at the price that she spent on such a poor quality diamond. The color, clarity, and cut were all bad, and the dealer smoked her because she was so focused on the size of the diamond for the price. You can't really say it all the dealer's fault. When you walk into a jewelry store at your mall, this is what you see every day. People paying too much for poor quality diamonds.

People just need to use their own knowledge and their own judgment on things that they buy. I personally think some of the prices that people paid for the Dimtiri Young PSA 10's are absolutely nuts. Did those people get duped? Did the people who bought the hype of the Strasburg and Jeremy Lin cards get duped? Buying during the 80s-90s bubble? Insert cards? As did many others, I got killed buying cards during that 80s-90s bubble and became very disillusioned for a time and dropped out of the hobby. However, who knew these guys were printing so many cards? I guess all of during that era should have known, but were just deceiving ourselves as we were dreaming about our retirement savings already. At some point, you really have to decide for yourself if the card is really worth the price the dealer is selling it for. There was a thread in the Memorabilia section about the crazy prices people were paying for items from Heritage's recent Live auction such as the 1969 Topps Basketball set. However, other posters defended the prices as some people had the means to pay the prices, so that meant the prices were fair. If anyone was investing their life savings, I really hope that they knew what they were doing.

I believed Ken already addressed the card slabbing issue by saying he wasn't involved in that aspect of it. If I'm wrong, please correct me. However, if he had just sold the cards raw, but said they were gem mint like many raw dealers do, would that have made a difference?

Again, it is not like Ken is someone like Brian Dwyer with a "sterling" reputation. He has some work to do, and I think he's admitted this already. Let's just see how his first auction runs and go from there. Besides having stuff I want, the biggest thing that I want from an auction house is no shilling, including house bids or safety bids. That is, I want real auctions where the true market price of the item is set. I would like to see reasonable shipping charges and that my winnings are shipped fairly quickly after payment. Accepting paypal or credit cards would be very nice also, along with reasonable buyer's fee. I would also want reasonable recourse if the item when delivered did not match the auction description. Good luck, Ken.

+1
I agree with Gary.

[teetwoohsix]

Due to the request to remove/edit my other post by Mr.Goldin, I decided to remove this post as well.

[edhans]

Gary,
With all due respect, surely we must differentiate between an educated collector paying Levi 10 or 20 percent over "book" for a card they need or an "investor" taking a chance on rookie cards of modern players and the deliberate misleading of unwitting and gullible newbies to sell junk at many multiples of it's actual value. Ken obviously knew that SAH was using gross exagerations and distortions, if nothing worse, to cheat people out of millions, as Glyn's horror story above illustrates. Yes, consumers do have a duty to educate themselves somewhat on what they purchase , but "that's the way it was done" just doesn't wash here. I just don't see how the hobby can give him a pass on this one.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Ed, the hobby would give virtually anyone a pass if he had something on their wantlist. And find a way to justify it.

[calvindog]

Or if they were conspiring with the auction house to shill up their consignments.

[brickyardkennedy]

Originally Posted by edhans

Gary,
With all due respect, surely we must differentiate between an educated collector paying Levi 10 or 20 percent over "book" for a card they need or an "investor" taking a chance on rookie cards of modern players and the deliberate misleading of unwitting and gullible newbies to sell junk at many multiples of it's actual value. Ken obviously knew that SAH was using gross exagerations and distortions, if nothing worse, to cheat people out of millions, as Glyn's horror story above illustrates. Yes, consumers do have a duty to educate themselves somewhat on what they purchase , but "that's the way it was done" just doesn't wash here. I just don't see how the hobby can give him a pass on this one.

Exactly.

[DJR]

I have a similar story to Glyn's but with a factor of minimum 10x - 15x. A friend from high school tracked me down me to sell her father's collection, while he was on his death bed, being foreclosed on with medical expenses piling up. Most items were purchased from SAH while he was in a diminished capacity. Many biggest autographs (Mantle, DiMaggio, etc.) were not even authentic according the PSA/DNA (but I could immediately tell) and cards a joke worth pennies on the dollar. I am not trying to fuel the fire but would question the business acumen and honesty of anyone involved with SAH. Either become a whistle blower, leave or enable. I felt so bad for my friend's family and father, I set up at a card show, sold everything that did not sell on eBay, did not charge her anything besides eBay / Paypal fees and refused compensation. It was rewarding helping a friend find some comfort in a time of need and TRIED to right the wrong. Can you imagine how hard it was for me to explain what transpired?

Modified after receiving (5 or 6) 'threatening' emails including these gems. I think discovery would be enlightening possibly turning a civil matter into criminal. I also find it implausible someone could sell tens of million of autos and NEVER be accused of selling a fake auto!

I think Wyclef summed it up quite prophetically, ''Some live for the bill, some kill for the bill, she/he wined for the bill, grind for the bill, some steal for the bill; if they got to pay the bill, singin' dollar, dollar bill, y'all''

''your thread below is false. I have never sold , nor have i ever been accused of selling a fake autograph on SAH or anywhere else. I in fact have worked for 10 years with with authorities to go after forgers with US attorney and law enforcement offficials.. There were 6-8 OTHER vendors of SAH , and I could not control or know what product they sold, in fact they were competitors. Just because someone bought an auto turned out to be not authentic, does NOT mean I was the vendor, as I was not. I was well known for having Mantle, Dimaggio, and all the big names under contract, and quite frankly had more autographs then I could possibly move. I have posted on this subject in #46 as well as msg #140.
I do not wish to contant the moderator, or my attorney regarding your message...but sir it is false and can be considered slander. I strongly suggest you delete or edit it out to say someone bought a bad autograph but you do NOT know who the vendor was, and take out the 'Kenny' comment. If you wish to discuss this, you may email me at ken@goldinauctions.com and give me your contact #.
As long as the post is deleted or edited to reflect the facts, I will consider the matter closed
regards''

''Sirt
I prefer to not get into a pointless argument with you
The message was written in a way to imply I sold fake autographs on Sah .
I am available to discuss this via ofemail or phone call with you. I am happy to listen to our story, but want my side to be heard as well. I would appreciate it if you simply edited the message without posting what I thought was a private message to you. I am still working with authorities and would not want that posted as it could jeopardize ongoing investigations..
Please edit my post to you, and I am happy to call you or have you call me.
We are close to getting a group of forgers and at is why I did not post that reply publicly.
I hope you find it within yourself and edit the message so I am not being accused ( the thanks Kenny) comment at end...and remove the fact you got an email from me. I seriously do to want to jeopardize a current case and hope ou will understand. If ou email me. Phone number I will call you from my cell so ou hve mine. Well
Thank ou''

P.S. Your reading comprehension and grammar Kenny are as questionable as your ethical decisions. For the record, I never accused you of selling fake autos. However, if you perform a Google search, you will find plenty of others that do and accuse you of a litany of other indiscretions.

[buymycards]

Gary, I don't like to get involved in these arguments, but I can't believe the way you can justify the Shop at Home issue. You said "that is way that Shop at Home operates". So that makes is OK? Wow, that is just great.

Plus, Shop at Home wasn't marketing these cards to the hobby. These shows were targeted toward people who were at home watching tv. The lies and exaggerations were marketed to people with little knowledge of the hobby, and they believed Ken's lies. Anyone who was involved with the hobby knew enough to stay away from these cards.

Just because Ken has been a great customer of yours doesn't mean that you should condone his unethical behavior.

[botn]

Originally Posted by calvindog

That's not true at all. I made it very clear that I think the videos, the hawking of the crap was bad -- and I told you that your criticism was welcomed and valid. I'm just disappointed in the difference in the board reaction to Ken compared with Mastro, Allen, etc., guys who stole from everyone HERE by using fraudulent means which rose to the level of violations of federal criminal law. The response for the past seven years and even following their indictment and the revelation of Bill's apparent cooperation with the Feds has been tepid at best for reasons you personally know: that board members here made money with Mastro as they turned a blind eye to the fraud as their consignments went through the roof. And while Ken deserves the criticism it just strikes me as a bit bizarre that suddenly the pitch forks and torches are out and while his actions are borderline, I don't see them nearly rising to the level of what would be needed to indict him for mail or wire fraud.

Jeff, none of us are as close to the Mastro indictment as you are. You have been privy to far more evidence than we have. You are also representing numerous people who are or were involved to varying degree.

And I really could not disagree with you more about this absurd statement, "The response for the past seven years and even following their indictment and the revelation of Bill's apparent cooperation with the Feds has been tepid at best for reasons you personally know: that board members here made money with Mastro as they turned a blind eye to the fraud as their consignments went through the roof." Are you seriously saying that everyone who has been less vocal than you is doing so because we all got fat off of our consignments with Mastro and Legendary? You really should think again.

I am not suggesting that Goldin be indicted for misleading buyers into forking over $5,000 for each 1985 Nike Jordan PRO 10, as an example, but at least the victims who were shilled end up with an item they know was worth something close to what they ended up paying. Assuming their purchases were not influenced by misrepresentation by the house or they are astute buyers, they also end up with something that can appreciate.

This thread should not really be about which unethical activity is worse. You should start your own poll thread if you want to go there and if you do don't forget to add trimming up cards and either placing them in graded holders or getting them into graded holders, as options.

[kengoldin]

To comment further and a last time on the SAH stuff. I first called into SAH in 1995 I believe. I last called in 2002. I, like many, thought Don West was funny and almost thought he was putting on an act, which to a degree he was. I was told that is what their audience liked, they were the ante-QVC, which is a soft, non value sell. I imagine while I was doing it I did not take it seriously enough. At the time it was kind of like a comedy show, it was parodied often on SNL, as well as Opie and Anthony show. In the 11 years since I have called into SAH, I have been divorced, remarried, had 2 daughters, and found my love again for what started me in this hobby when I was 11 years old, vintage cards and vintage memorabilia. I started by traveling to shows, buying and selling with my father, Paul Goldin, who many of you knew if you were around in the 1970s and 80s. I still have a vast collection and have been building on it the past 10 years . Yes, the new stuff for the most part is crap that will not be worth much in the future.
Yes, SAH was over the top. Yes, SAH in the majority of instances sold product for way too much money (keep in mind as a retailer however, they sold product for double what they paid, meaning the vendor got ½ the amount, or LESS then the price you saw on the screen). I wish I could say it wasn’t part of my past, but it is. I apologize for using the words ‘that’s how it was done’ and I have edited that out almost immediately out of the post. I am sorry for the word choice of my original posting, and as stated, as someone who understood the business very well, I was doing well enough by just selling to the soft cell QVC. I should never have stooped to the hard sell SAH method of doing business and I am sorry it happened. I know many hobbyist hated those shows, and I know many people loved them. I know the dealers that were providing me with product loved me. The people that hated the shows have always been the most vocal…and relentless. My point in the earlier post about mentioning QVC was only to point out that as an individual, I was able to adapt my ‘pitch’ to the network. One wanted a high energy, over the top performance, the other wanted an informative, no hype, no value driven soft sell. In hindsight I should have let SAH sell the product and not participate and wish I did not. At this point, when I turn 60 , 70 and even 80 to some I will always be known as the guy who used to call into SAH.
Hopefully to many of you I will not be remembered that way, to some I will, no matter what good I did in the past and do in the future. I will have to live with that. Just like I had to live with losing $1 million plus on Mark Mcgwire product (most of which I still have in inventory) because I did invest in the product I sold, and did get killed when he fell off the map and later had steroid controversy. To address one last question that was raised, on post 48 I outlined my departure from SB in 1997, as well as fact that I was not with the company when redemptions were due (including the Wagner card) so I cannot answer as to the outcome that John White CEO of SB did with the card. The company had run a similar promotion with a 52 topps mantle when I was there in 1996 and everyone got their cards, including the 52 topps Mantle that was given away. Also, with regards to authenticity question raised just above this post, I refer you back to my post #46. And I will repeat, there were 6-8 vendors to SAH…I just happen to be the most well known. With respect to autographs I constantly emailed SAH that they need to be careful who they purchased autos from, as they were buying from people who were not experts and not providing good certs…I purchased several items from them with ‘Howards sports collectibles’ certs to see what customers were getting, and then would send them to SAH management telling them I did not think it was real. . Again, all I ask is fairness. If I was not the vendor who sold a given product, I cannot take blame for that product. Just because it was sold on SAH does NOT mean the company I worked for was the vendor.
I wish the best of luck and collecting to all of you, even the negative posters, and hope at some point in time in the future you will look at Ken Goldin as the person who brought athletes to the masses, the guy who signed Shaq exclusively, and hopefully, the guy who always delivers great auctions and great products. I am available by PM or email if I can help any dealer or collector in any way, but believe my days of posting and reading this is over.

[calvindog]

Greg, I'm not suggesting everyone should have been as vocal as me regarding Mastro, Allen and Goodwin -- I'm saying many people tried to stop the criticism because of their great financial dealings with those three and others with suspect auction results. And you know this to be true.

And there should be no defense of shilled auctions. Just because someone only was ripped off 10-20% for an item does not make the fraud less insidious. Multiply that times tens of millions of dollars over the years. The bottom line is that with all the fraud in this hobby I'm surprised that the most venom is reserved for behavior which I don't think rises to the level of a crime -- no matter how repulsive it is.

[brickyardkennedy]

The Shop At Home Network was never meant to be directed at the knowledgeable, but rather, the ignorant and gullible. And they damn well knew who their audience was. So, it's a question off whether or not you, like the bandit leader in The Magnificent Seven, believe that, "If God did not want them to be shorn, he would not have made them sheep", or if you believe that man should conduct himself in a more ethical manner.

[botn]

And what about the tens of millions of dollars spent on high grade cards in PSA and SGC holders, that if broken out and assessed honestly, would come back with an A?

Don't think anyone here feels shilling bidding is great for the hobby. And I agree you have to start somewhere, e.g. the Mastro indictment, but here is a thread addressing questionable activity by someone in the hobby and you have to derail it and sort of denounce it because it pales in comparison to shill bidding. Shill bidding pales in comparison to the crimes committed in trimming cards and slabbing them.

If you are a hobby crusader then why would you take this approach?

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by botn

And what about the tens of millions of dollars spent on high grade cards in PSA and SGC holders, that if broken out and assessed honestly, would come back with an A?

Don't think anyone here feels shilling bidding is great for the hobby. And I agree you have to start somewhere, e.g. the Mastro indictment, but here is a thread addressing questionable activity by someone in the hobby and you have to derail it and sort of denounce it because it pales in comparison to shill bidding. Shill bidding pales in comparison to the crimes committed in trimming cards and slabbing them.

If you are a hobby crusader then why would you take this approach?

How do you know I'm not concerned with trimmed cards and other fraud in the hobby? And who said I was a "hobby crusader?" I just was tired of getting ripped off and spoke out about it. And caught a lot of grief from the shillers' co-conspirators for daring to open my mouth. Did you forget? Instead of ripping me for not doing everything to clean up the hobby maybe acknowledge that at least I've done something.

[edhans]

Ken,
As one of your harshest critics in this thread, I'm glad to see a little remorse for your involvement with SAH. Though it stops somewhat short of the heartfelt apology I feel is warranted, it is a step in the right direction. I'm sure your new venture will be successful, but I'm not quite comfortable with supporting it just yet.

Jeff,
Agree completely that there should be no defense of shilled auctions. But in my view, the behavior of the folks at SAH and their collaborators, though not criminal in nature, is entirely worthy of all the venom in this thread, and then some.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Personally I feel that stories such as Glyn's and DJR's about the legacy of SAH are much worse than anything in the shill bidding annals. So some folks with lots of disposable income paid more than they should have. Bad, sure, but not the end of the world. And as Greg said, not even close to the evil that is trimming and otherwise altering cards.

[calvindog]

Ed, I don't disagree. Just wish that when a few of us were posting the obviously ridiculously consistent auction results associated with a few auction houses that someone might have expressed the same outrage we see here. But as I've stated, I guess no one on Net 54 made money with Ken.

[Peter_Spaeth]

One more for Jeff.

[calvindog]

It's not a dead horse until they're all in jail and restitution paid back. Of course it took five years to indict some of the fraudsters so I suppose I should have stopped talking about all this four and a half years ago. Sorry if it ruined your reading enjoyment of the board.

And hey, makes sense to criticize me.

[Peter_Spaeth]

The indictments are not a dead horse, but bringing every thread and post back to them is.