new member introduction

[teetwoohsix]

Originally Posted by glynparson

It was around 1999-2000. I received a phone call from a woman in the Lebanon PA area. Her husband has just passed away from cancer and all he left her was this very valuable baseball card collection. When I get to the house, I brought my father with me to help go through it, she takes us to the basement to see the collection. When I get there I am horrified. It is all very beat up ugly off centered new cards all in 10 holders. The woman then explains to us how her husband found out he was dying of cancer, he didn't tell anyone at first. they had little money and No life insurance. They did have good credit, and he eventually told his wife he was dying of cancer but he had provided for her and their daughter. He got several credit cards and maxed them out buying that overhyped crap off of TV from Mr Goldin and Solomon Cramer. It was so hard explaining to this woman that her sick desperate husband, who was trying to give his family a future, had actually wasted tens of thousands of dollars they did not have. The woman was crying hysterically she was telling us how she would lose her home because she needed money from these cards. He had spent 20000+ and I would not have given her $2000 for it all and I would have paid her more than it was worth to try and help her. So no, he will not get a second chance from me, I don't care if he gets every white whale on my want list. I hope is has turned a new leaf but until past since are acknowledge a little more honestly and openly, and attempted to be rectified when possible, I will avoid Goldin auctions and be openly critical of his past, and I also wish they would not be an advertiser and please don't send me any email blasts about upcoming auctions as I don't care.

Edit: Jeff if you would see some of the garbage they were calling gem mint on modern stuff it seems a little beyond puffery in my opinion.

This is a horrible story, it made me sad to read it.

Did anyone ever get the real T206 Wagner (that was hyped in the video)?

Sincerely, Clayton

[glchen]

First, the disclaimer, as in my last post on this thread, I have sold cards to Ken before, so I am not a completely unbiased poster. I have always felt that our dealings were very fair and professional. However, take this and my opinions on this as it is.

That story from Glyn is pretty bad. I'm not saying that I'm unsympathetic to the man and his wife. It's a horrible story. You don't wish that on anybody. However, did Ken know that the man was dying of cancer and was spending his life savings on cards when this was going down? I assume he did not. He was just a face on TV, doing his job of trying to sell cards. A lot of dealers sell over-priced cards. It could be on TV (like Ken did), it could be at card shows like the National, and it could be on ebay with overpriced BINs. If the same person spent his money on seriously over-priced BIN's from Levi and 707 after watching news on his TV about the Black Swamp find, would it be Levi's fault on what happened to his family? Some people are justifiable shocked at Levi's high prices, but others counter that he is a nice guy and ships quickly with good service. OKAY...

The argument will be that Levi did not hype his cards like Ken did or promise huge returns. I think Ken already addressed some of this in his earlier 4 posts, which basically came down to this is how Shop At Home operates for all of the things they sell. However, the point I want to bring up here is that you have to be knowledgeable about this hobby if you buy anything of considerable worth. This is why this forum has been so great, because there are a lot of people on this board who are very knowledgeable with many, many years in the hobby and are very willing to dispense it. You have to have an idea of what you are doing, or else there is a very good chance that you are going to get creamed. Knowledge is absolutely vital in this hobby whether it is which TPG's are reputable, how to tell if a raw card is authentic, use VCP and past sales for your pricing data rather than SMR or Beckett, and so forth. Again for some people, this is only a hobby and they do not care what their returns are or if they get any money back at all. However, if you have or are planning to put any significant sums of money into this hobby, you better try to learn as much as possible.

Being knowledgeable brings me up to another story about jewelry, which is also often sold on TV. My mother-in-law is an avid fan of the jewelry channel to my chagrin. This brings me to a story about buying diamonds. When I was looking into purchasing an engagement ring for my soon-to-be wife, I really researched it. I bought a book on how to buy diamonds, and read many, many articles with helpful advice about it on the internet. Therefore, when I finally purchased the ring, I felt that I really knew what I was doing and bought the best ring and diamond for the price I could afford. This is what knowledge can give you. When my mother-in-law showed me a small diamond ring (~1 carat) that she purchased, I was shocked at the price that she spent on such a poor quality diamond. The color, clarity, and cut were all bad, and the dealer smoked her because she was so focused on the size of the diamond for the price. You can't really say it all the dealer's fault. When you walk into a jewelry store at your mall, this is what you see every day. People paying too much for poor quality diamonds.

People just need to use their own knowledge and their own judgment on things that they buy. I personally think some of the prices that people paid for the Dimtiri Young PSA 10's are absolutely nuts. Did those people get duped? Did the people who bought the hype of the Strasburg and Jeremy Lin cards get duped? Buying during the 80s-90s bubble? Insert cards? As did many others, I got killed buying cards during that 80s-90s bubble and became very disillusioned for a time and dropped out of the hobby. However, who knew these guys were printing so many cards? I guess all of during that era should have known, but were just deceiving ourselves as we were dreaming about our retirement savings already. At some point, you really have to decide for yourself if the card is really worth the price the dealer is selling it for. There was a thread in the Memorabilia section about the crazy prices people were paying for items from Heritage's recent Live auction such as the 1969 Topps Basketball set. However, other posters defended the prices as some people had the means to pay the prices, so that meant the prices were fair. If anyone was investing their life savings, I really hope that they knew what they were doing.

I believed Ken already addressed the card slabbing issue by saying he wasn't involved in that aspect of it. If I'm wrong, please correct me. However, if he had just sold the cards raw, but said they were gem mint like many raw dealers do, would that have made a difference?

Again, it is not like Ken is someone like Brian Dwyer with a "sterling" reputation. He has some work to do, and I think he's admitted this already. Let's just see how his first auction runs and go from there. Besides having stuff I want, the biggest thing that I want from an auction house is no shilling, including house bids or safety bids. That is, I want real auctions where the true market price of the item is set. I would like to see reasonable shipping charges and that my winnings are shipped fairly quickly after payment. Accepting paypal or credit cards would be very nice also, along with reasonable buyer's fee. I would also want reasonable recourse if the item when delivered did not match the auction description. Good luck, Ken.

[Ladder7]

Hey, lay off Barry. He wasn't giving an endorsement.

Incidentally, Im not buying any of his epiphany BS. But, no doubt, there will be a "Show your Goldin winnings" thread... Yep Net54, we'll get this hobby cleaned up yet!

[Peter_Spaeth]

"The argument will be that Levi did not hype his cards like Ken did or promise huge returns. I think Ken already addressed some of this in his earlier 4 posts, which basically came down to this is how Shop At Home operates for all of the things they sell."

The Nuremberg defense applied to baseball cards. Beautiful.

[calvindog]

LOL ok that was a good one. Peter, I wouldn't want you to not get the appropriate kudos for that gold.

But who can forget the days when I'd point out the hilarious price disparities on cards of identical issue and grade of Goodwin sales compared to eBay and every other auction house? $309, $312, $305, $2986, $316 -- and all I'd get back was "Goodwin is a great guy, shut your mouth."

[Peter_Spaeth]

--

[calvindog]

Lol

[Buythatcard]

Originally Posted by glchen

First, the disclaimer, as in my last post on this thread, I have sold cards to Ken before, so I am not a completely unbiased poster. I have always felt that our dealings were very fair and professional. However, take this and my opinions on this as it is.

That story from Glyn is pretty bad. I'm not saying that I'm unsympathetic to the man and his wife. It's a horrible story. You don't wish that on anybody. However, did Ken know that the man was dying of cancer and was spending his life savings on cards when this was going down? I assume he did not. He was just a face on TV, doing his job of trying to sell cards. A lot of dealers sell over-priced cards. It could be on TV (like Ken did), it could be at card shows like the National, and it could be on ebay with overpriced BINs. If the same person spent his money on seriously over-priced BIN's from Levi and 707 after watching news on his TV about the Black Swamp find, would it be Levi's fault on what happened to his family? Some people are justifiable shocked at Levi's high prices, but others counter that he is a nice guy and ships quickly with good service. OKAY...

The argument will be that Levi did not hype his cards like Ken did or promise huge returns. I think Ken already addressed some of this in his earlier 4 posts, which basically came down to this is how Shop At Home operates for all of the things they sell. However, the point I want to bring up here is that you have to be knowledgeable about this hobby if you buy anything of considerable worth. This is why this forum has been so great, because there are a lot of people on this board who are very knowledgeable with many, many years in the hobby and are very willing to dispense it. You have to have an idea of what you are doing, or else there is a very good chance that you are going to get creamed. Knowledge is absolutely vital in this hobby whether it is which TPG's are reputable, how to tell if a raw card is authentic, use VCP and past sales for your pricing data rather than SMR or Beckett, and so forth. Again for some people, this is only a hobby and they do not care what their returns are or if they get any money back at all. However, if you have or are planning to put any significant sums of money into this hobby, you better try to learn as much as possible.

Being knowledgeable brings me up to another story about jewelry, which is also often sold on TV. My mother-in-law is an avid fan of the jewelry channel to my chagrin. This brings me to a story about buying diamonds. When I was looking into purchasing an engagement ring for my soon-to-be wife, I really researched it. I bought a book on how to buy diamonds, and read many, many articles with helpful advice about it on the internet. Therefore, when I finally purchased the ring, I felt that I really knew what I was doing and bought the best ring and diamond for the price I could afford. This is what knowledge can give you. When my mother-in-law showed me a small diamond ring (~1 carat) that she purchased, I was shocked at the price that she spent on such a poor quality diamond. The color, clarity, and cut were all bad, and the dealer smoked her because she was so focused on the size of the diamond for the price. You can't really say it all the dealer's fault. When you walk into a jewelry store at your mall, this is what you see every day. People paying too much for poor quality diamonds.

People just need to use their own knowledge and their own judgment on things that they buy. I personally think some of the prices that people paid for the Dimtiri Young PSA 10's are absolutely nuts. Did those people get duped? Did the people who bought the hype of the Strasburg and Jeremy Lin cards get duped? Buying during the 80s-90s bubble? Insert cards? As did many others, I got killed buying cards during that 80s-90s bubble and became very disillusioned for a time and dropped out of the hobby. However, who knew these guys were printing so many cards? I guess all of during that era should have known, but were just deceiving ourselves as we were dreaming about our retirement savings already. At some point, you really have to decide for yourself if the card is really worth the price the dealer is selling it for. There was a thread in the Memorabilia section about the crazy prices people were paying for items from Heritage's recent Live auction such as the 1969 Topps Basketball set. However, other posters defended the prices as some people had the means to pay the prices, so that meant the prices were fair. If anyone was investing their life savings, I really hope that they knew what they were doing.

I believed Ken already addressed the card slabbing issue by saying he wasn't involved in that aspect of it. If I'm wrong, please correct me. However, if he had just sold the cards raw, but said they were gem mint like many raw dealers do, would that have made a difference?

Again, it is not like Ken is someone like Brian Dwyer with a "sterling" reputation. He has some work to do, and I think he's admitted this already. Let's just see how his first auction runs and go from there. Besides having stuff I want, the biggest thing that I want from an auction house is no shilling, including house bids or safety bids. That is, I want real auctions where the true market price of the item is set. I would like to see reasonable shipping charges and that my winnings are shipped fairly quickly after payment. Accepting paypal or credit cards would be very nice also, along with reasonable buyer's fee. I would also want reasonable recourse if the item when delivered did not match the auction description. Good luck, Ken.

+1
I agree with Gary.

[teetwoohsix]

Due to the request to remove/edit my other post by Mr.Goldin, I decided to remove this post as well.

[edhans]

Gary,
With all due respect, surely we must differentiate between an educated collector paying Levi 10 or 20 percent over "book" for a card they need or an "investor" taking a chance on rookie cards of modern players and the deliberate misleading of unwitting and gullible newbies to sell junk at many multiples of it's actual value. Ken obviously knew that SAH was using gross exagerations and distortions, if nothing worse, to cheat people out of millions, as Glyn's horror story above illustrates. Yes, consumers do have a duty to educate themselves somewhat on what they purchase , but "that's the way it was done" just doesn't wash here. I just don't see how the hobby can give him a pass on this one.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Ed, the hobby would give virtually anyone a pass if he had something on their wantlist. And find a way to justify it.

[calvindog]

Or if they were conspiring with the auction house to shill up their consignments.

[brickyardkennedy]

Originally Posted by edhans

Gary,
With all due respect, surely we must differentiate between an educated collector paying Levi 10 or 20 percent over "book" for a card they need or an "investor" taking a chance on rookie cards of modern players and the deliberate misleading of unwitting and gullible newbies to sell junk at many multiples of it's actual value. Ken obviously knew that SAH was using gross exagerations and distortions, if nothing worse, to cheat people out of millions, as Glyn's horror story above illustrates. Yes, consumers do have a duty to educate themselves somewhat on what they purchase , but "that's the way it was done" just doesn't wash here. I just don't see how the hobby can give him a pass on this one.

Exactly.

[DJR]

I have a similar story to Glyn's but with a factor of minimum 10x - 15x. A friend from high school tracked me down me to sell her father's collection, while he was on his death bed, being foreclosed on with medical expenses piling up. Most items were purchased from SAH while he was in a diminished capacity. Many biggest autographs (Mantle, DiMaggio, etc.) were not even authentic according the PSA/DNA (but I could immediately tell) and cards a joke worth pennies on the dollar. I am not trying to fuel the fire but would question the business acumen and honesty of anyone involved with SAH. Either become a whistle blower, leave or enable. I felt so bad for my friend's family and father, I set up at a card show, sold everything that did not sell on eBay, did not charge her anything besides eBay / Paypal fees and refused compensation. It was rewarding helping a friend find some comfort in a time of need and TRIED to right the wrong. Can you imagine how hard it was for me to explain what transpired?

Modified after receiving (5 or 6) 'threatening' emails including these gems. I think discovery would be enlightening possibly turning a civil matter into criminal. I also find it implausible someone could sell tens of million of autos and NEVER be accused of selling a fake auto!

I think Wyclef summed it up quite prophetically, ''Some live for the bill, some kill for the bill, she/he wined for the bill, grind for the bill, some steal for the bill; if they got to pay the bill, singin' dollar, dollar bill, y'all''

''your thread below is false. I have never sold , nor have i ever been accused of selling a fake autograph on SAH or anywhere else. I in fact have worked for 10 years with with authorities to go after forgers with US attorney and law enforcement offficials.. There were 6-8 OTHER vendors of SAH , and I could not control or know what product they sold, in fact they were competitors. Just because someone bought an auto turned out to be not authentic, does NOT mean I was the vendor, as I was not. I was well known for having Mantle, Dimaggio, and all the big names under contract, and quite frankly had more autographs then I could possibly move. I have posted on this subject in #46 as well as msg #140.
I do not wish to contant the moderator, or my attorney regarding your message...but sir it is false and can be considered slander. I strongly suggest you delete or edit it out to say someone bought a bad autograph but you do NOT know who the vendor was, and take out the 'Kenny' comment. If you wish to discuss this, you may email me at ken@goldinauctions.com and give me your contact #.
As long as the post is deleted or edited to reflect the facts, I will consider the matter closed
regards''

''Sirt
I prefer to not get into a pointless argument with you
The message was written in a way to imply I sold fake autographs on Sah .
I am available to discuss this via ofemail or phone call with you. I am happy to listen to our story, but want my side to be heard as well. I would appreciate it if you simply edited the message without posting what I thought was a private message to you. I am still working with authorities and would not want that posted as it could jeopardize ongoing investigations..
Please edit my post to you, and I am happy to call you or have you call me.
We are close to getting a group of forgers and at is why I did not post that reply publicly.
I hope you find it within yourself and edit the message so I am not being accused ( the thanks Kenny) comment at end...and remove the fact you got an email from me. I seriously do to want to jeopardize a current case and hope ou will understand. If ou email me. Phone number I will call you from my cell so ou hve mine. Well
Thank ou''

P.S. Your reading comprehension and grammar Kenny are as questionable as your ethical decisions. For the record, I never accused you of selling fake autos. However, if you perform a Google search, you will find plenty of others that do and accuse you of a litany of other indiscretions.

[kengoldin]

To comment further and a last time on the SAH stuff. I first called into SAH in 1995 I believe. I last called in 2002. I, like many, thought Don West was funny and almost thought he was putting on an act, which to a degree he was. I was told that is what their audience liked, they were the ante-QVC, which is a soft, non value sell. I imagine while I was doing it I did not take it seriously enough. At the time it was kind of like a comedy show, it was parodied often on SNL, as well as Opie and Anthony show. In the 11 years since I have called into SAH, I have been divorced, remarried, had 2 daughters, and found my love again for what started me in this hobby when I was 11 years old, vintage cards and vintage memorabilia. I started by traveling to shows, buying and selling with my father, Paul Goldin, who many of you knew if you were around in the 1970s and 80s. I still have a vast collection and have been building on it the past 10 years . Yes, the new stuff for the most part is crap that will not be worth much in the future.
Yes, SAH was over the top. Yes, SAH in the majority of instances sold product for way too much money (keep in mind as a retailer however, they sold product for double what they paid, meaning the vendor got ½ the amount, or LESS then the price you saw on the screen). I wish I could say it wasn’t part of my past, but it is. I apologize for using the words ‘that’s how it was done’ and I have edited that out almost immediately out of the post. I am sorry for the word choice of my original posting, and as stated, as someone who understood the business very well, I was doing well enough by just selling to the soft cell QVC. I should never have stooped to the hard sell SAH method of doing business and I am sorry it happened. I know many hobbyist hated those shows, and I know many people loved them. I know the dealers that were providing me with product loved me. The people that hated the shows have always been the most vocal…and relentless. My point in the earlier post about mentioning QVC was only to point out that as an individual, I was able to adapt my ‘pitch’ to the network. One wanted a high energy, over the top performance, the other wanted an informative, no hype, no value driven soft sell. In hindsight I should have let SAH sell the product and not participate and wish I did not. At this point, when I turn 60 , 70 and even 80 to some I will always be known as the guy who used to call into SAH.
Hopefully to many of you I will not be remembered that way, to some I will, no matter what good I did in the past and do in the future. I will have to live with that. Just like I had to live with losing $1 million plus on Mark Mcgwire product (most of which I still have in inventory) because I did invest in the product I sold, and did get killed when he fell off the map and later had steroid controversy. To address one last question that was raised, on post 48 I outlined my departure from SB in 1997, as well as fact that I was not with the company when redemptions were due (including the Wagner card) so I cannot answer as to the outcome that John White CEO of SB did with the card. The company had run a similar promotion with a 52 topps mantle when I was there in 1996 and everyone got their cards, including the 52 topps Mantle that was given away. Also, with regards to authenticity question raised just above this post, I refer you back to my post #46. And I will repeat, there were 6-8 vendors to SAH…I just happen to be the most well known. With respect to autographs I constantly emailed SAH that they need to be careful who they purchased autos from, as they were buying from people who were not experts and not providing good certs…I purchased several items from them with ‘Howards sports collectibles’ certs to see what customers were getting, and then would send them to SAH management telling them I did not think it was real. . Again, all I ask is fairness. If I was not the vendor who sold a given product, I cannot take blame for that product. Just because it was sold on SAH does NOT mean the company I worked for was the vendor.
I wish the best of luck and collecting to all of you, even the negative posters, and hope at some point in time in the future you will look at Ken Goldin as the person who brought athletes to the masses, the guy who signed Shaq exclusively, and hopefully, the guy who always delivers great auctions and great products. I am available by PM or email if I can help any dealer or collector in any way, but believe my days of posting and reading this is over.

[edhans]

Ken,
As one of your harshest critics in this thread, I'm glad to see a little remorse for your involvement with SAH. Though it stops somewhat short of the heartfelt apology I feel is warranted, it is a step in the right direction. I'm sure your new venture will be successful, but I'm not quite comfortable with supporting it just yet.

Jeff,
Agree completely that there should be no defense of shilled auctions. But in my view, the behavior of the folks at SAH and their collaborators, though not criminal in nature, is entirely worthy of all the venom in this thread, and then some.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Personally I feel that stories such as Glyn's and DJR's about the legacy of SAH are much worse than anything in the shill bidding annals. So some folks with lots of disposable income paid more than they should have. Bad, sure, but not the end of the world. And as Greg said, not even close to the evil that is trimming and otherwise altering cards.

[calvindog]

Ed, I don't disagree. Just wish that when a few of us were posting the obviously ridiculously consistent auction results associated with a few auction houses that someone might have expressed the same outrage we see here. But as I've stated, I guess no one on Net 54 made money with Ken.

[Peter_Spaeth]

One more for Jeff.

[WindyCityGameUsed]

Originally Posted by kengoldin

To comment further and a last time on the SAH stuff. I first called into SAH in 1995 I believe. I last called in 2002. I, like many, thought Don West was funny and almost thought he was putting on an act, which to a degree he was. I was told that is what their audience liked, they were the ante-QVC, which is a soft, non value sell. I imagine while I was doing it I did not take it seriously enough. At the time it was kind of like a comedy show, it was parodied often on SNL, as well as Opie and Anthony show. In the 11 years since I have called into SAH, I have been divorced, remarried, had 2 daughters, and found my love again for what started me in this hobby when I was 11 years old, vintage cards and vintage memorabilia. I started by traveling to shows, buying and selling with my father, Paul Goldin, who many of you knew if you were around in the 1970s and 80s. I still have a vast collection and have been building on it the past 10 years . Yes, the new stuff for the most part is crap that will not be worth much in the future.
Yes, SAH was over the top. Yes, SAH in the majority of instances sold product for way too much money (keep in mind as a retailer however, they sold product for double what they paid, meaning the vendor got ½ the amount, or LESS then the price you saw on the screen). I wish I could say it wasn’t part of my past, but it is. I apologize for using the words ‘that’s how it was done’ and I have edited that out almost immediately out of the post. I am sorry for the word choice of my original posting, and as stated, as someone who understood the business very well, I was doing well enough by just selling to the soft cell QVC. I should never have stooped to the hard sell SAH method of doing business and I am sorry it happened. I know many hobbyist hated those shows, and I know many people loved them. I know the dealers that were providing me with product loved me. The people that hated the shows have always been the most vocal…and relentless. My point in the earlier post about mentioning QVC was only to point out that as an individual, I was able to adapt my ‘pitch’ to the network. One wanted a high energy, over the top performance, the other wanted an informative, no hype, no value driven soft sell. In hindsight I should have let SAH sell the product and not participate and wish I did not. At this point, when I turn 60 , 70 and even 80 to some I will always be known as the guy who used to call into SAH.
Hopefully to many of you I will not be remembered that way, to some I will, no matter what good I did in the past and do in the future. I will have to live with that. Just like I had to live with losing $1 million plus on Mark Mcgwire product (most of which I still have in inventory) because I did invest in the product I sold, and did get killed when he fell off the map and later had steroid controversy. To address one last question that was raised, on post 48 I outlined my departure from SB in 1997, as well as fact that I was not with the company when redemptions were due (including the Wagner card) so I cannot answer as to the outcome that John White CEO of SB did with the card. The company had run a similar promotion with a 52 topps mantle when I was there in 1996 and everyone got their cards, including the 52 topps Mantle that was given away. Also, with regards to authenticity question raised just above this post, I refer you back to my post #46. And I will repeat, there were 6-8 vendors to SAH…I just happen to be the most well known. With respect to autographs I constantly emailed SAH that they need to be careful who they purchased autos from, as they were buying from people who were not experts and not providing good certs…I purchased several items from them with ‘Howards sports collectibles’ certs to see what customers were getting, and then would send them to SAH management telling them I did not think it was real. . Again, all I ask is fairness. If I was not the vendor who sold a given product, I cannot take blame for that product. Just because it was sold on SAH does NOT mean the company I worked for was the vendor.
I wish the best of luck and collecting to all of you, even the negative posters, and hope at some point in time in the future you will look at Ken Goldin as the person who brought athletes to the masses, the guy who signed Shaq exclusively, and hopefully, the guy who always delivers great auctions and great products. I am available by PM or email if I can help any dealer or collector in any way, but believe my days of posting and reading this is over.

This appears to be an appropriate time for a reread of this post